Posted by: Soh
Here is the fourth series of a collection of early forum discussions between I, Thusness, and a few others.

Also see: Early Forum Posts by Thusness, Part 2 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness, Part 3 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness


Forum Topic: Thoughts don’t exist, but are powerful (Source: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2406&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Marcelo: Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject: Thoughts don't exist, but are powerful

They really don't exist, but they would like to.

That's why a person write them down.

They are fleeting, so they want to survive, to become eternal.

At first, it appears as if a person is writing his/her thoughts. But in fact, the thoughts are using this person to exist in paper (or in electronic media).

If you write a thought, it becomes happy. Now, it exists, or at least seems so. But sophisticated thoughts demand more attention than that. They stick together with other thoughts, they improve themselves, they need to become elaborated judgements, ideas, essays, theories, and, who knows, even ideologies. Then they demands more and more energy to be defended.

Other thoughts are silly but persistent, desired things to be achieved, but never put into practice. They are like daydreaming, taking away person's energy and vitality, confusing the mind, like smoke.

Other thoughts like to work in the darkness, pretending not to be there, in the mind. But they are hiding somewhere, waiting for the right time for action. They are too ugly to be written. Their existence depends on their ability to hide.

Thoughts want to become more important than humans. In fact, humans are not using thoughts. Thoughts are using humans as vehicles. I'm not saying that thoughts are inherently bad. But they have a lot of energy, and this energy can easily hurt its vehicle (the person who thinks) and other vehicles. Even good ideas, good intentions, can easily hurt people. It is liberating to see this mechanism at work.

P.S.: Those were just some thoughts that wanted to be written.
Larryfroot: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:19 am    Post subject:
Marcelo! What a splendid opening line!
Quote:
They really don't exist, but they would like to.


yet the act that they are perceived hints at some sort of reality - the reality of mere appearance only. They do not exist in a solid concrete way - they lack form. Yet there they are. Thoughts are simply a process of dependent arising. They arise and exist and fall back into the entire process of manifestation. Their lack of solid reality and yet the irrefutable fact of their appearance can lead us to a new, fresh understanding that how thoughts arise without true form and yet have appearance is exactly how all of this manifestation does exactly the same. You are right. Thoughts do not exist - but only insofar as they lack form. So it is more specific to state that thoughts are empty of inherent solid resistance. And there you have the middle way. Emptiness. And for me, it is a far more profound and meaningful truth - a far more workable truth than nothingness.

Passerby: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:17 am    Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
Marcelo! What a splendid opening line!
Quote:
They really don't exist, but they would like to.


yet the act that they are perceived hints at some sort of reality - the reality of mere appearance only. They do not exist in a solid concrete way - they lack form. Yet there they are. Thoughts are simply a process of dependent arising. They arise and exist and fall back into the entire process of manifestation. Their lack of solid reality and yet the irrefutable fact of their appearance can lead us to a new, fresh understanding that how thoughts arise without true form and yet have appearance is exactly how all of this manifestation does exactly the same. You are right. Thoughts do not exist - but only insofar as they lack form. So it is more specific to state that thoughts are empty of inherent solid resistance. And there you have the middle way. Emptiness. And for me, it is a far more profound and meaningful truth - a far more workable truth than nothingness.


Good stuff! The emptiness nature of manifestation. lachen
Passerby: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject:
jane wrote:

but the flow of manifestation "Knows"


Just the manifestation, that alone is. The mirror is not needed.
The need for a mirror on top of manifestation is a habitual propensity to 'reconfirm', it is something extra.
The one hand claps, everything is.
big grin
Passerby: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
jane wrote:
There is no static witness behind our experiences.
No background.
The witness turns out to be everything that is witnessed.
Manifestation is the source the witness.
They are not separate.
Awareness is the words that form on the screen
the sound of typing.
There is only moment to moment of flow of manifestation.
Non-duality is not a state it is not an experience.
It is the nature of reality of all states.
the entry to the gateless gate.
Form is emptiness and emptiness is form.


Jane,
No.
The ONE INFINITE EXISTENCE/Awareness Itself does not "come from" the Manifestation

Hi Grim,

As much as I would not like to say, although you have experienced the fruition of ‘seeing’, you have not experienced the fruition of ‘dropping the Self -- The ONE INFINITE EXISTENCE’. If the essence of experiencing manifestation without the background is not fully realized, there is no hope in understanding the ‘dreamless sleep’. To hold on to a familiar state of awareness that is experienced in waking state and attempt to bring this familiar experience to ‘dreamless sleep’ state is a distortion of what awareness is. It is an attempt of our thinking mechanism to replicate to what it thinks 'pure awareness' is into 'dreamless sleep'. If ‘conscious knowing’ does not give way to spontaneity of being no one, then there is no hope in understanding ‘unconsciousness’. Knowingness is the very flow of spontaneous manifestation.

Good Luck! lachen
GrimNexus: Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject:
Passerby wrote:

Hi Grim,

As much as I would not like to say, although you have experienced the fruition of ‘seeing’, you have not experienced the fruition of ‘dropping the Self -- The ONE INFINITE EXISTENCE’. If the essence of experiencing manifestation without the background is not fully realized, there is no hope in understanding the ‘dreamless sleep’. To hold on to a familiar state of awareness that is experienced in waking state and attempt to bring this familiar experience to ‘dreamless sleep’ state is a distortion of what awareness is. It is an attempt of our thinking mechanism to replicate to what it thinks 'pure awareness' is into 'dreamless sleep'. If ‘conscious knowing’ does not give way to spontaneity of being no one, then there is no hope in understanding ‘unconsciousness’. Knowingness is the very flow of spontaneous manifestation.

Good Luck! lachen

I'm aware of this. Why do you not like to say? You're not hurting feelings.
You use different words and/or description.
I'm not trying to have the state of awareness that is experienced in the "waking state" to 'be the same familarity' as "dreamless sleep".
The true 'transcending' of both (or the 3 states) is inconcievable.

Passerby, i have a question for you,
In traditional terms and usage (for lack of better terms & description)
Are you saying that you fully reside in that state of being no one?

ps. where you said: "Knowingness is the very flow of spontaneous manifestation."
I wouldn't even say that much... but i get your drift, if that's what's drifting.
Thanks for the post.
Passerby:  Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:26 am    Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
I'm aware of this. Why do you not like to say? You're not hurting feelings.
You use different words and/or description.
I'm not trying to have the state of awareness that is experienced in the "waking state" to 'be the same familarity' as "dreamless sleep".
The true 'transcending' of both (or the 3 states) is inconcievable.

Passerby, i have a question for you,
In traditional terms and usage (for lack of better terms & description)
Are you saying that you fully reside in that state of being no one?

ps. where you said: "Knowingness is the very flow of spontaneous manifestation."
I wouldn't even say that much... but i get your drift, if that's what's drifting.
Thanks for the post.

Just a passer by. So nothing intense. big grin
Before getting into residing and non-residing in a certain state. A mind that is dualistic is a mind continuously acting upon itself, this is termed 'karmic or doing or efforting'. Whichever way we go here or there, within or without are all 'doings'. How is such a mind going to break this 'chain of doing'?

Maybe this is confusing and too buddhistic. I will put it in another way. "Who, what, where when and why" is merely a system of enquiry, it is not necessary the way reality is. The mind is molded by 'this system of enquiry to know' into seeing existence dualistically in terms of subject and object division. How is one to break this mode of duality?
GrimNexus: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:49 am    Post subject:

Who?, What?, When?, Where?, Why? & How?
are all the same answer.
This has been experienced.

Have you ever read the Yoga sutras of Pantanjali?

To answer your question: "How is one to break this mode of duality?"
It is inconcievable.
Jeff: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
GrimNexus wrote:
I'm aware of this. Why do you not like to say? You're not hurting feelings.
You use different words and/or description.
I'm not trying to have the state of awareness that is experienced in the "waking state" to 'be the same familarity' as "dreamless sleep".
The true 'transcending' of both (or the 3 states) is inconcievable.

Passerby, i have a question for you,
In traditional terms and usage (for lack of better terms & description)
Are you saying that you fully reside in that state of being no one?

ps. where you said: "Knowingness is the very flow of spontaneous manifestation."
I wouldn't even say that much... but i get your drift, if that's what's drifting.
Thanks for the post.


Just a passer by. So nothing intense. big grin
Before getting into residing and non-residing in a certain state. A mind that is dualistic is a mind continuously acting upon itself, this is termed 'karmic or doing or efforting'. Whichever way we go here or there, within or without are all 'doings'. How is such a mind going to break this 'chain of doing'?

Maybe this is confusing and too buddhistic. I will put it in another way. "Who, what, where when and why" is merely a system of enquiry, it is not necessary the way reality is. The mind is molded by 'this system of enquiry to know' into seeing existence dualistically in terms of subject and object division. How is one to break this mode of duality?

one could play at being two for a while,
play, being the focus,
play brings a lightness to the process,
but good play is not a process lachen
GrimNexus: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:02 am    Post subject:
Passerby,
essentially,

Silence must be forgotten, also.
In analogy,
One dollar has 4 quarters, but you do not need the division of 4 quarters for One dollar. One dollar is a whole by itself.
AUM
A = 1st
U = 2nd
M = 3rd
AUM aka Silence = 4th
None of these divisions are needed.

Here, the pathless path is pathless in experiencing.
The resolution of this is inconcievable.

Maybe try this:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/chidakasa.html
Passerby: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
Who?, What?, When?, Where?, Why? & How?
are all the same answer.
This has been experienced.

Have you ever read the Yoga sutras of Pantanjali?

Yes but forgotten.
Quote:

To answer your question: "How is one to break this mode of duality?"
It is inconcievable.

Since it is inconvcievable, rest.

Nice Chat!

Gone!
Passerby:  Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 1:06 am    Post subject:
jeff wrote:

one could play at being two for a while,
play, being the focus,
play brings a lightness to the process,
but good play is not a process lachen


Must play till u forgot urself completely. big grin
Bye! lachen
Passerby: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
Passerby,
could you answer my question now though?
In traditional terms and usage (for lack of better terms & description)
Are you saying that you fully reside in that state of being no one?

So persistent, it might not be fruitful but so be it! big grin

It will be quite misleading if I tell you yes. As it is not quite the same as the Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi you are referring too. ‘No-self’ (in Buddhism and in reality) is not a state to be attained nor is there a state to reside, it is the ‘nature’ or a characteristic that is exhibited in phenomenon arising at all time. Always so and truly so.

For the purpose of discussion, you can treat as yes, that agent is gone, the 'bond' in consciousness that there is an agent is gone. But the 'bond' of 'mine' is still lingering there in consciousness. Many mistaken that if
there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.
Quote:

I understand Transparancy.
Invisible is normally misunderstood to be the same thing, but there's much more/less in Transparancy.

Unless the fabric and texture of awareness as 'forms', as 'things' is sufficiently experienced, we might not be talking the same stuff.

Lastly we are speaking foreign langauges here. I do not wish to disturb the peacefulness of this forum. lachen
GrimNexus: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
GrimNexus wrote:
Passerby,
could you answer my question now though?
In traditional terms and usage (for lack of better terms & description)
Are you saying that you fully reside in that state of being no one?

So persistent, it might not be fruitful but so be it! big grin

It will be quite misleading if I tell you yes. As it is not quite the same as the Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi you are referring too. ‘No-self’ (in Buddhism and in reality) is not a state to be attained nor is there a state to reside, it is the ‘nature’ or a characteristic that is exhibited in phenomenon arising at all time. Always so and truly so.

For the purpose of discussion, you can treat as yes, that agent is gone, the 'bond' in consciousness that there is an agent is gone. But the 'bond' of 'mine' is still lingering there in consciousness. Many mistaken that if
there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.
Quote:

I understand Transparancy.
Invisible is normally misunderstood to be the same thing, but there's much more/less in Transparancy.

Unless the fabric and texture of awareness as 'forms', as 'things' is sufficiently experienced, we might not be talking the same stuff.

Lastly we are speaking foreign langauges here. I do not wish to disturb the peacefulness of this forum. lachen


So eloquent. Don't worry about misleading me. All i would ask is you answer to the best of your ability, that is all. It's my job to make sense of it, not yours. Once it leaves your proximity (and even before that) you dont have to worry about it. At least not how it is here.

Yes, the "fabric and texture of awareness as 'forms' and 'things'" has been sufficiently experienced.
As i stated previously, "Who?", "What?", "When?", "Where?", "Why?", & "How?" have 'All' been 'experienced' Simultaneously, and it's the same answer--Thusness.
It is known, there could be no "I". And the "I" that does appear, that is known too.

to put it bluntly, we're in the same boat.
grab that other oar, i've been going in circles here! Jeff is only using his hands...
(And Amadeus is taking a nap or something)
lachtot

you said it best here: "Many mistaken that if there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions."
What you speak of is Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi
the latent tendencies of the mind lie in wait for favorable conditions to arise

The merging of the terms and usage that we're both using is how you put it here: Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.
Passerby: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject:
First I must clarify that IMO it is not the experience of “I am the Self”, “I am pure Awareness” or “I am the ultimate reality” that liberates. It is realization of the ‘nature’ of Awareness that is “non-dual, spontaneous and non-local” that liberates. We can go into that later.
GrimNexus wrote:

you said it best here: "Many mistaken that if there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions."
What you speak of is Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi
the latent tendencies of the mind lie in wait for favorable conditions to arise

The merging of the terms and usage that we're both using is how you put it here: Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.

Well said! lachen
Let’s start with this topic of a ‘seed’ that bond us from realizing our nature and not talk about the stages of realization.

Like laying a book on a patch of grass causes an imprint on the grass, consciousness forms imprints upon itself incessantly. Words and symbols carry meanings and form imprints. “Time, space, here, there, now, this, that, in and out…and so on..”, all carry imprints. It is due to the amazing reaction of consciousness to symbols that makes illusions appear real. In fact to consciousness it has all implications, so much so that it defines and makes us believe that the world is so. It is a like magical spell that cannot be broken easily. Not even by the Buddhas from beginlessness time.

Now my first question, when a practitioner first experienced the transcendental experience of “I AM”, the ‘Infinite Existence”, that pure sense of existence, that indubitable Reality, that “Pure I AMness”, what is the experience about? Is that state pure awareness or is it a reaction to the bond and when this 'bond' sets in?
GrimNexus: Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
First I must clarify that IMO it is not the experience of “I am the Self”, “I am pure Awareness” or “I am the ultimate reality” that liberates. It is realization of the ‘nature’ of Awareness that is “non-dual, spontaneous and non-local” that liberates. We can go into that later.

If those are the terms you wish to use, it is understood. Havn't been looking for the experience of 'I am the Self' or 'I am pure Awareness' or 'I am the Ultimate Reality' to liberate. It doesn't anyway.
The only thing i would add to your description is "Perpetually Spontaneous" (because it is a description, and a description implys an event)
*shrugs* i understand what you're saying, dunno how you feel about it.
Quote:

Let’s start with this topic of a ‘seed’ that bond us from realizing our nature and not talk about the stages of realization.

Agreed. Besides, as i see it, we're at the door of The Absolute.
It's either all or nothing.
Quote:

Like laying a book on a patch of grass causes an imprint on the grass, consciousness forms imprints upon itself incessantly. Words and symbols carry meanings and form imprints. “Time, space, here, there, now, this, that, in and out…and so on..”, all carry imprints. It is due to the amazing reaction of consciousness to symbols that makes illusions appear real. In fact to consciousness it has all implications, so much so that it defines and makes us believe that the world is so. It is a like magical spell that cannot be broken easily. Not even by the Buddhas from beginlessness time.

Yeap. I got a phrase for why the world appears as it does with all that functions within it:
Just as a disclaimer-which i'm sure you dont need-When reading this, don't let either side of polarity take more precedence over the other:
Same for All, Different for Every
Quote:

Now my first question, when a practitioner first experienced the transcendental experience of “I AM”, the ‘Infinite Existence”, that pure sense of existence, that indubitable Reality, that “Pure I AMness”, what is the experience about? Is that state pure awareness or is it a reaction to the bond and when this 'bond' sets in?

It's Simultaneously both of them (because the True Nature is Neither), as the statement i posted above implies.
Past what that experience is about(what contains it), or to fully know "both at once" is utterly inconcievable.

However, here's my pointer of a direct door to THAT:
Neither the Neither of Neither
Passerby: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:10 am    Post subject:
Quote:

However, here's my pointer of a direct door to THAT:
Neither the Neither of Neither

The taste of coffee is more direct.
Only the taste, that alone is sufficient. big grin

The entire whole fabric and texture of awareness is in this instantaneous moment of tasting and it is gone! Without trace -- A passer by.

'Self' is like marking a point on the surface of a sphere and called it a ‘center’. If we do not know that all points on the surface are ‘centers’, then we will have to locate that ‘mark’ carefully. This is the experience of Self. When one realizes that all points are ‘centers’ then there is no ‘the center’ really (realization of no-self), one freely points to anywhere on the surface of a sphere without missing the ‘center’. The 'bond' that prevents the 'seeing' is gone, this is the realization of no entry and exit. Lastly, even when there are karma propensities, the propensities self-liberates (Realisation of emptiness and spontaneity). That is all I can say.

Happy Journey! lachen
An Eternal Now: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:17 am    Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
you said it best here: "Many mistaken that if there is no 'I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions."
What you speak of is Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi
the latent tendencies of the mind lie in wait for favorable conditions to arise

The merging of the terms and usage that we're both using is how you put it here: Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.


Hi, realising the nature of Non-duality and No-self is not Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi because from what I've read, Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a temporary state, it is not pathless without entry and exit which will come as a result of insight into non-duality. You said in another post:
GrimNexus wrote:
Jane,
Nope, i'm not completly done yet. There is not full residing in the Self in an unbroken state. I have/can/do experience Turiya, but that is really wholy different than Turiyatita, from which there is utterly no "entry" or "return", it is wholly inconcievable.
Here's a great explination:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/chidakasa.html

Have you ever heard of the Yoga Sutras of Pantanjali?
It talks about "breaches in Enlightenment"
Here's a really good website, that has the whole sutra as well as a lot of explinations.
check it out if you want, i'll link the section that talks about "breaches in Enlightenment" first, then link the Sutra Map

here's the section that speaks about "breaches in Enlightenment":
http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras-42728.htm

Here's the link for the whole Sutra Map:
http://swamij.com/yoga-sutras.htm
It's kinda interesting to see an overview, if you scroll a little down this page, you'll see the "Practical Journey through the Yoga Sutras" Map thingy


Yes, without having realised the pathless path without entry and return, the realisation is still not complete. But there is some problems with the site you provided... but first to comment about no-self.. No-self and non-duality is talking about no subject-object duality as the nature of Reality (not as a state or a stage). Once No-Self and Non-Duality is realised, one realises the pathless path, the path with no entry and exit/return. It is also the realisation that, as Passerby said, leads to experience everything, every moment the unmanifested. (see
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689 - xsurf is me)

As Ken Wilber puts it, "at some point, as you inquire into the Witness, and rest in the Witness, the sense of being a Witness “in here” completely vanishes itself, and the Witness turns out to be everything that is witnessed. The causal gives way to the Nondual, and formless mysticism gives way to nondual mysticism. “Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form.” It is the realisation that the Manifestation is the Source, the Witness, they are not separate. Awareness is the words that form on the screen, the sound of typing, that's it.. no static witness behind our experiences, no 'background'.

Transcending Witness and realising Non-Duality is not through effort or will... it is not something 'attained', it is about insights and realisation of No-Self and Non-Duality... it is the realisation that all along, there never was a self, a doer, a watcher, apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation... and everything is spontaneously arising. Non-Duality is not a state, it is not just an experience, it is the nature of reality, of all states. At this level subject-object doesn't become one, but rather there never was subject-object separation. This is 'entry' into the pathless with no entry and exit.

Even before this deep insight of non-duality occurs, non-dual experience and total presence can occur time to time, as a form of 'fusing' of subject and object. However this will not last long as the basic ignorance of duality has not been seen through... one will eventually return to the usual dualistic mode of perceiving. After realisation of non-duality, there is no more entry and exit as there never was subject-object separation in the first place. The illusion is completely seen through. This must come from realisation.

Passerby wrote 6 stages of his experiences (this is just a summary in terms of stages, but actually there many 'sub' stages and realisations within every stage)

Regarding Passerby/Thusness's six stages of experiences, please read:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html (I have posted other articles about non-duality in that blog)

After Passerby's Stage 4 insights onwards, one enters the pathless. Regarding non-duality, you may also like to read Simpo's and Ken Wilber's articles in Simpo's 'Closing Gaps Spiritual Discussion Forum':
http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1170547575&page=1

Therefore no self is not a state, it is the nature of reality, it is known as a dharma seal. There is no entering into non duality or no self... because there was no self to be found to begin with. There is alwaysno entry and exit
lachenAnd this comes from realisation.

After realisation of the pathless, no karmic propensities will obstruct the clarity on no self/no agent (no watcher, no doer, no self, etc), though karmic propensities of 'mine' can still be functioning till one completely realises the self-liberation of everything including those karmic tendencies.. and it is only the cream of the crop of enlightened who immediately realises self-liberation after glimpse of non-dual such as Buddha, Padmasambhava, Bodhidharma, etc. At this age there probably is no one who is of such capacities to awaken instantaneously to complete self-liberation. If insight into self-liberation is not there, one can still be attached to 'mine' even though the subject or 'self' is gone, as what Passerby said.

Now back to the site by Wanderling... I must say the 5 stages of Tozan which he wrote in his website is a very good description of the stages, but the author Wanderling has missed the essence of the stages. In terms of the 5 stages of Tozan, even at the second stage one must already have realised the pathless, and realised non-duality. The 2nd rank of Tozan can be compared with Passerby's 'stage 5' or Simpo and Ken Wilber's articles on non-duality, and there is no more falling back onto a 'Source' as background because the Absolute is realised to be within the Apparent -- it is no longer Apparent within the Real, but the Real within the Apparent, and the background container where manifestation arises and returns is vanished. The Real is in all manifestations. Manifestation is Source. The rest of the Tozan ranks are just about putting no-agent into samsara to meet no-mine through non-action. The no-agent dirties his hands and enter into samsara to meet no-mine through non-action.

I understand you're coming from a more Hindu/Advaita background, and I think you might be interested to read something I post earlier on regarding this:
http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2056 (regarding no-self and emptiness in NM's article and advaita vedanta teachings [see 2nd post]). Maharishi Mahesh Yogi also described non-duality in his final stage of enlightenment (unity consciousness): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Meditation. Also, you may take it that Turiyatita is about Non-duality, as Ken Wilber said.

(lol sorry for editing so many times
lol)
GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:05 am    Post subject:

we're using words, and when you think i'm referring to an "entry/exit" i'm referring to the functioning of "mine"; the "entry/exit" into that functioning. It has to be pathless to even notice such things.
Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is pathless without entry and exit because you have to first be pathless without entry and exit to enter it.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the pathless but Kevala is where the "mine/mind" would still be alive but in latent tendencies, Sahaja is where the "mine/mind" is completly dead or "no-mine/no-mind"

maybe this makes more sense
GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject:
An Eternal Now, on one of those links, simpo said:
Quote:
Please understand that all along our existence has been non-dual. There is no attaining to non-duality... It is only the 'sense of self' that created the impression of duality. Even when the 'sense of self' is there, existence is still non-dual. We never live out of non-duality.


Also, there is another point to add...

Non-duality is NOT the same as a state of Witnessing Presence observing Phenomenality. An Eternal Witness Presence that is apart from Phenomena cannot be said to be non dual as there are 2 components here (witness and phenomena). I had this experience before. And now, I must say that true non-duality is distinctively different from this.

Non duality can only be effortlessly experienced when the 'sense of self' and the 'Eternal Witness' are correctly understood for what they are.

Completly agree.
AnEternalNow: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
we're using words, and when you think i'm referring to an "entry/exit" i'm referring to the functioning of "mine"; the "entry/exit" into that functioning. It has to be pathless to even notice such things.
Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is pathless without entry and exit because you have to first be pathless without entry and exit to enter it.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the pathless but Kevala is where the "mine/mind" would still be alive but in latent tendencies, Sahaja is where the "mine/mind" is completly dead or "no-mine/no-mind"

maybe this makes more sense


I see... the reason why I wrote is because I read that Kevala Samadhi is that the mind is alive but merged in light, like a bucket with rope lowered into a well, that can be drawn out again., or As Ramana Maharshi has stated again and again, while Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi gives Direct Knowledge in Total Clarity of The Self, the latent tendencies will at times appear to draw the mind of the Yogi out again. and that Kevala Samadhi is A temporary state of Samadhi or Self-absorption. But well, I may have misunderstood what it meant..

Once there is non-dual insight, nothing can 'draw the yogi out'. Once pathless is realised, one is always in samadhi zwinkernPasserby shared this two years ago, one of his meditation diary:

[22:25] <^john^> 02/1/2005
[22:25] <^john^> Without 'self' oneness is immediately attained.
[22:25] <^john^> There is only and always this Isness. Subject has always been the Object of observation.
[22:25] <^john^> This is true samadhi without entering trance.
[22:25] <^john^> Completely understanding this truth. It is the true way towards liberation.
[22:25] <^john^> Every sound, sensation, arising of consciousness is so clear, real and vivid.
[22:25] <^john^> Every moment is samadhi.
[22:25] <^john^> The tip of the fingers in contact with the keyboard, mysteriously created the
[22:25] <^john^> contact consciousness, what is it? Feel the entirety of beingness and realness.
[22:25] <^john^> There is no subject...just Isness.
[22:25] <^john^> No thought, there really is no thought and no 'self'. Only Pure Awareness.
AnEternalNow: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi is pathless without entry and exit because you have to first be pathless without entry and exit to enter it.


Pathless has no entering at all. You are already that state. (there never was subject and object or a self, and there is no need to 'get rid of self') and it is not talking about Self as formless, pathless and then merging/absorption with that formless, pathless, etc. It is about insight that burns away the bond. Maybe Passerby can comment more.
GrimNexus wrote:
Let me try this.
I've read Thusness' 6 stages.
From what i've written and what you understand that i've written, referencing Thusness' stages, which stage do you think i'm on?


Passerby thinks you might be at stage 2~4.
GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject:

i'm not doing as good of a job at exacting of description

For lack of better terms and description:
Are either you or Passerby Aware in Dreamless Sleep/Deep Sleep?
GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:24 pm    Post subject:
Let's try and explore through this descirption
What is written here in Thusness' blog:
Quote:
Since appearance is all there is and appearance is really the source, what gives rise to the diversities of appearances? “Sweetness” of sugar isn’t the “blueness” color of the sky. Same applies to “AMness”… all are equally pure, no one state is purer than the other, only condition differs. Conditions are factors that give appearances their ‘forms’. In Buddhism, pristine awareness and conditions are inseparable.


What is the differing of conditions?
Pristine Awareness & Conditions are inseparable, what gives rise to factors that give appearance, appearance, at all?

(btw, i'm not asking this because i dont know; i'm asking because i'd like to see your answer so we could try and get a working communication)
GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject:

The Question IS The Answer, most clearly, when it is not asked.
Passerby: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject:
AnEternalNow wrote:

[22:25] <^john^> 02/1/2005


Gosh...oversold. lachen

The 6 stages that I outlined are mainly to share with Jonls (aka Amadeus), they are hardly authoritative. Pointless to over emphasize anything beyond what it is.

In fact my earlier years of practice hasn't been consistent, from Buddhism to Hinduism to Taoism and back to Buddhism, pretty mixed up... Let it just serve as a guide. big grin
GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:29 pm    Post subject:

appreciate that.
really do.
AnEternalNow: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject:
GrimNexus wrote:
Let's try and explore through this descirption
What is written here in Thusness' blog:
Quote:
Since appearance is all there is and appearance is really the source, what gives rise to the diversities of appearances? “Sweetness” of sugar isn’t the “blueness” color of the sky. Same applies to “AMness”… all are equally pure, no one state is purer than the other, only condition differs. Conditions are factors that give appearances their ‘forms’. In Buddhism, pristine awareness and conditions are inseparable.


What is the differing of conditions?
Pristine Awareness & Conditions are inseparable, what gives rise to factors that give appearance, appearance, at all?

(btw, i'm not asking this because i dont know; i'm asking because i'd like to see your answer so we could try and get a working communication)


I drink the coffee, u get the taste.

I do not know why. zwinkern
GrimNexus: Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:01 pm    Post subject:

that's the exact reason

Forum Topic: Identification with the role of teacher (Source: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2434&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Passerby: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject:
eseward wrote:
GrimNexus wrote:
Seperating by discrimination and trying to ascribe binding(identification), non-binding(fully self-realized/no-identification), or the means to bind(ignorance), all are simply illusionary discriminations of the mind.

If in fact, you want to say that this binding or identification is only apparent and not real; then what is it this apparent happening, at all?
This question is erroneous because if the binding or identification is only apparent then that appearance that is claimed to be, has to have an origin. That is simply just another presupposition of a true Source or Entity that manifests Appearance. Of which, there truly is none.


I see my error now. Thanks for clarifying.

(Separating, not seperating.)


Just for sharing since it involves lankavatara sutra:

Having a beginning, a start is due to the poverty of our thinking mechanism. The thinking mind requires a base, a starting point for it even to function, it is not necessary how reality is. We adopt such mechanism because we are molded to see things in terms of 'entity' creating a subject and object split. Reality only appears to be so -- Appearance but it is not necessary so. So any attempt to use such mode of apprehending reality will only create more confusions to the mind.

ps: I think this is what Grim trying to convey. lachen
Yougarksoo: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Having a beginning, a start is due to the poverty of our thinking mechanism. The thinking mind requires a base, a starting point for it even to function, it is not necessary how reality is. We adopt such mechanism because we are molded to see things in terms of 'entity' creating a subject and object split. Reality only appears to be so -- Appearance but it is not necessary so. So any attempt to use such mode of apprehending reality will only create more confusions to the mind.

If in fact you are simply saying the mind can only see conceptually rather than what is actually going on in this moment, I get it. Concepts, thoughts, ideas, objects, people have a beginning and end to the mind, but reality is ongoing, fluid, connected. That is oneness.
Passerby: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:23 am    Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:

If in fact you are simply saying the mind can only see conceptually rather than what is actually going on in this moment, I get it. Concepts, thoughts, ideas, objects, people have a beginning and end to the mind, but reality is ongoing, fluid, connected. That is oneness.


Yes!
But not to underestimate the strength and subtlety of this habitual tendency of the thinking mind to grasp hold of a base. It subtly manifests as the Witness observing phenomenon. If not for this propensity in action, there will no division and experience will have been just the manifestation in flow.
Yougarksoo: PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Yes!
But not to underestimate the strength and subtlety of this habitual tendency of the thinking mind to grasp hold of a base. It subtly manifests as the Witness observing phenomenon. If not for this propensity in action, there will no division and experience will have been just the manifestation in flow.

This reminds me of Tolle's description: we live in a dream. We believe that the person is the dreamer but this isn't so. The person is part of the dream. Consciousness is the dreamer. But consciousness is no-thing. It is clear, aware space. There is no distinction between the consciousness you are and the consciousness I am. It's all one and enlightenment is when it becomes aware of itself as one. We are consciousness meeting itself. And within that awareness, many forms arise---bodies, houses, thoughts, words etc? But they are also just part of that flow, not separate from it. Is this what you mean? I get a strong sense of this now and then. I suppose there is a subtle sense of it within my consciousness always. But I don't live in full realization of this. So it takes me somewhat out of my own experience to even talk about it. Do you have direct experience of this? If so, please share what it is like...
Passerby: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:

This reminds me of Tolle's description: we live in a dream. We believe that the person is the dreamer but this isn't so. The person is part of the dream. Consciousness is the dreamer. But consciousness is no-thing. It is clear, aware space. There is no distinction between the consciousness you are and the consciousness I am. It's all one and enlightenment is when it becomes aware of itself as one. We are consciousness meeting itself. And within that awareness, many forms arise---bodies, houses, thoughts, words etc? But they are also just part of that flow, not separate from it. Is this what you mean? I get a strong sense of this now and then. I suppose there is a subtle sense of it within my consciousness always. But I don't live in full realization of this. So it takes me somewhat out of my own experience to even talk about it. Do you have direct experience of this? If so, please share what it is like...
Just for sharing:

Let's say we are in the midst of a retreat and we were meditating deeply. Then suddenly we hear the sound ‘tongsss’. There was no 'I', no 'mine', no nothing...Just simply the sound and nothing else! And ‘tongs…’ resounding…. It was so clear, so vivid. Absorbed in that moment of clarity of the sound, we asked “what is that sound?” If we allow ourselves to be just unscientific for a moment and submerge completely into that very moment of experience and ask what that is? Isn’t that consciousness? Then the question comes, “is consciousness in here or out there?”

A division is made between ‘in here’ and ‘out there’ because we carry the imprints of a ‘body’. When the ‘imprints’ and the ‘symbolic meaning’ of what ‘a body is’ is being deconstructed, the body does not disappear; what disappears is the ‘division’ that distort the wholeness and clarity of the moment of experience.

Similarly when consciousness first experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer – Scenery is radically different from sound. But no one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.

Such is the strength and subtlety of the ‘bond’. The power to blind us in dreams.
Yougarksoo: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject:
Quote:
Similarly when consciousness first experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer – Scenery is radically different from sound. But no one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.

Can you explain this paragraph in different terms.

Also, you have experienced this or is this channeled information?

Is this just another way of discussing the sense of oneness or saying that, once awakening occurs, we can even move beyond seeing consciousness within us as an identity and then see something without the veil of the conceptual seer, hear without the conceptual hearer, touch without the conceptual toucher? Then, everything merges completely. If so, I get it. If not, I'm totally lost (and would like you to explain it in the simplest terms).
Holy_longing: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
Similarly when consciousness first experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer – Scenery is radically different from sound. But no one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.


Can you explain this paragraph in different terms.

Also, you have experienced this or is this channeled information?

Is this just a fancier way of saying that, once awakening occurs, we then see something without the veil of the conceptual seer, hear without the conceptual hearer, touch without the conceptual toucher? If so, I get it. If not, I'm totally lost.


Yougarksooo: you get it.

It's easiest to 'be' in nature. My first experiences were being at one with large, old trees--watching them move in the strong wind...I felt the Oneness for the first time, and it was magnificent.

There's no need to channel. lachen

Passerby: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:52 pm    Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
Similarly when consciousness first experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer – Scenery is radically different from sound. But no one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.


Can you explain this paragraph in different terms.

Also, you have experienced this or is this channeled information?

Is this just another way of discussing the sense of oneness or saying that, once awakening occurs, we can even move beyond seeing consciousness within us as an identity and then see something without the veil of the conceptual seer, hear without the conceptual hearer, touch without the conceptual toucher? Then, everything merges completely. If so, I get it. If not, I'm totally lost (and would like you to explain it in the simplest terms).
Yes what you said is right and yes it is my experience and I am sincere. big grin

You may want to take a look at some of the experiences I went through to see whether it syncs with some of your
experience at this url http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html.

Nothing authentic, just for sharing. If it doesn't snycs, just disregard it. My 2 cents.
lachen

Passerby: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject:
holy_longing wrote:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Quote:
Similarly when consciousness first experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in term serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer – Scenery is radically different from sound. But no one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.


Can you explain this paragraph in different terms.

Also, you have experienced this or is this channeled information?

Is this just a fancier way of saying that, once awakening occurs, we then see something without the veil of the conceptual seer, hear without the conceptual hearer, touch without the conceptual toucher? If so, I get it. If not, I'm totally lost.


Yougarksooo: you get it.

It's easiest to 'be' in nature. My first experiences were being at one with large, old trees--watching them move in the strong wind...I felt the Oneness for the first time, and it was magnificent.

There's no need to channel. lachen

Indeed! Extend it to all other senses, all six doors of senses. Jump and feel the sensation of touch without 'self', the vipassana practice. Happy Journey. lachen
Larryfroot: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:39 am    Post subject:

Passerby...nic to meet you, please forgive me for not introducing myself to you sooner...I have been a little busy elsewhere of late.

If I may quote you:..
Quote:
...overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm.

The 'watcher' state requires awareness of awareness and consciousness of consciousness. As such it is not an identity - or rather, it need not be an identity as it is a function of consciousness to be aware - in the case of the watcher, aware of the ego led mind and pain body. We can create a new identity from the watcher, but we do not have to.

We speak of a gap of no self...well I have at any rate! And there is no way to define a gap...how do you define something that isn't there? But we can define it through its function. It is a space an allowing that allows all teh qualities that make life worth living to arise through it. It is an existence, but an existence of a subtle nature that many call 'emptiness' - rather than nothingness, which is something else - or perhaps something not else lachenentirely.
Passerby: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:
Passerby, I think it was just a communication issue. We have different ways of saying things. Also, this stuff is extremely hard to put into words.

Thanks for sharing.

I supposed so. Nice exchange. lachen
Passerby: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
Passerby...nic to meet you, please forgive me for not introducing myself to you sooner...I have been a little busy elsewhere of late.

If I may quote you:..
Quote:
...overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By so doing, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm.


The 'watcher' state requires awareness of awareness and consciousness of consciousness. As such it is not an identity - or rather, it need not be an identity as it is a function of consciousness to be aware - in the case of the watcher, aware of the ego led mind and pain body. We can create a new identity from the watcher, but we do not have to.

We speak of a gap of no self...well I have at any rate! And there is no way to define a gap...how do you define something that isn't there? But we can define it through its function. It is a space an allowing that allows all teh qualities that make life worth living to arise through it. It is an existence, but an existence of a subtle nature that many call 'emptiness' - rather than nothingness, which is something else - or perhaps something not else lachenentirely.

Hi Larry,
I came by few months back to visit afriend JonLS (aka Amadeus)... big grinand find the discussions quite interesting. So pop in once a while to visit the site. Thanks for the welcome!

I read the post you wrote about ‘emptiness’. Good stuff!

Emptiness like what you said is not nothingness. In Buddhism it is the ‘nature’ of reality. The characteristics that are exhibited in existence– mental states, thoughts, awareness and forms including nirvana are empty. This means that when we attempt to locate a place, a center, an origination, we can’t find any. It is empty.

Yes you sum up pretty much what consciousness is. When we are dealing with consciousness, we are in fact dealing with these 3 aspects, emptiness, luminosity and karmic propensities of consciousness.

In Buddhism the smallest unit of experience is a thought moment. These 3 characteristics of consciousness interact and create a thought moment. How liberating this moment is depends on how clear (non-dual), fluid (emptiness) and spontaneous (non-action) the moment of experience is.

Thanks for sharing. lachen
Yougarksoo: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:22 am    Post subject:
Quote:
The 'watcher' state requires awareness of awareness and consciousness of consciousness. As such it is not an identity - or rather, it need not be an identity as it is a function of consciousness to be aware - in the case of the watcher, aware of the ego led mind and pain body. We can create a new identity from the watcher, but we do not have to.

Right, and in my experience, when you examine this closely, here is what is happening. We experience this thing called awareness becoming aware of itself. Then a thought comes in and says, "that is me. I thought I was my thoughts, but instead I am the awareness." But when you look at that closer, another thought has simply come in (the thought that we are consciousness or awareness).

Byron Katie's question (among many other pointers from others) where she says "who would I be without that thought" can take us back to the source of the thought. Ramana talks about that also. When you trace even the thought "I am consciousness" back to its source, you end up with no thought and pure awareness (which I think Passerby was referring to). Even if you have some vague mental sense or vague assumption that you are consciousness, you can recognize that too as a thought (an infant thought) and keep going farther and farther back to the source of that assumption, and you end up in the true thoughtless realm, where the word identity as we use it has no meaning. In that "realm" there is no conceptual seer, just seeing etc.

That's just another way of saying what you said. Thanks to everyone who has posted recently. This has been helpful and fun.
Larryfroot: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject:

As a slight and I hope frooty tangent regarding thought...I have been reading Pema Chodron of late and the practice of maitra...loving kindness to 'yourself' - the thinker, the construct, and specuifically loving kindness to uncontrolled thoughts and unacceptable feelings. Now this is not appeasement...but put simply when we allow the qualities of consciousness, of awareness to shine onto any difficult thought process...the process becomes transmuted into that same quality. It is impossible for a thought to be loved and for it to remain a thought. It too attains the nature of love.

For so many years all the negative qualities I resented in my mind were subject to those same qualities in trying to chase them out. But hatred of hatred is still hatred. resenting resentment was still resentment. It was only when I learnt to see that thoughts of a mind that is orphaned - cut off from its own luminosity of consciousness - are also orphans...that the mind is simply frightened, confused and hurt...and that I had to stop trying to bully it into being my friend. My mind was never conquered by force, God alone knows I spent so many years trying. In the end my mind was conquered by love, patience, kindness...for when these qualities are shown to it, the aspect of mind that is mirror reveals itself in its transmutation into all those qualities.

So thought itself can be transformed into the expression of luminosity of consciousness by this simple and powerful method.

And yes, I am really enjoying this thread as well.
lachen
Eseward: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
loving kindness to ... the thinker, the construct, and specifically loving kindness to uncontrolled thoughts and unacceptable feelings

when we allow the qualities of consciousness, of awareness to shine onto any difficult thought process...the process becomes transmuted into that same quality. It is impossible for a thought to be loved and for it to remain a thought. It too attains the nature of love.

It was only when I learnt to see that thoughts of a mind that is orphaned - cut off from its own luminosity of consciousness - are also orphans...that the mind is simply frightened, confused and hurt...and that I had to stop trying to bully it into being my friend.

So thought itself can be transformed into the expression of luminosity of consciousness by this simple and powerful method.

Absolutely agree. Beautiful.
Yougarksoo: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject:
Quote:
when we allow the qualities of consciousness, of awareness to shine onto any difficult thought process...the process becomes transmuted into that same quality. It is impossible for a thought to be loved and for it to remain a thought. It too attains the nature of love.

It was only when I learnt to see that thoughts of a mind that is orphaned - cut off from its own luminosity of consciousness - are also orphans...that the mind is simply frightened, confused and hurt...and that I had to stop trying to bully it into being my friend.

Unique description, especially the bullying part. So true. Thanks.
Passerby: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
As a slight and I hope frooty tangent regarding thought...I have been reading Pema Chodron of late and the practice of maitra...loving kindness to 'yourself' - the thinker, the construct, and specuifically loving kindness to uncontrolled thoughts and unacceptable feelings. Now this is not appeasement...but put simply when we allow the qualities of consciousness, of awareness to shine onto any difficult thought process...the process becomes transmuted into that same quality. It is impossible for a thought to be loved and for it to remain a thought. It too attains the nature of love.

For so many years all the negative qualities I resented in my mind were subject to those same qualities in trying to chase them out. But hatred of hatred is still hatred. resenting resentment was still resentment. It was only when I learnt to see that thoughts of a mind that is orphaned - cut off from its own luminosity of consciousness - are also orphans...that the mind is simply frightened, confused and hurt...and that I had to stop trying to bully it into being my friend. My mind was never conquered by force, God alone knows I spent so many years trying. In the end my mind was conquered by love, patience, kindness...for when these qualities are shown to it, the aspect of mind that is mirror reveals itself in its transmutation into all those qualities.

So thought itself can be transformed into the expression of luminosity of consciousness by this simple and powerful method.

And yes, I am really enjoying this thread as well. lachen


Hi Larry,
Wonderful insight and beautiful description!
Although my practice is through naked awareness, I can see the wisdom of your words.

Naked awareness is a big bully to construct but kind to orphan-thoughts. Construct separates awareness from thoughts; assumes to exist but never existed. Thoughts are the very awareness just that their emptiness nature are too subtle for construct to fit into its dualistic framework. Blinded by the speed of thought’s transient nature, the illusion of memory and the dualistic framework of construct, we personified different aspects of awareness into different 'entities', define relationships and make attempts to separate the inseparable. Thoughts being awareness themselves are self-luminous and self liberate. Only a quantum leap in seeing, nothing needs be done.

Thanks again for your invaluable insight in metta practice, it helps alot. lachen

To Indigo:
That is what I meant. big grin
Forum Topic: When truth takes over (Source: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2466&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Amadeus: Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: When truth takes over
The title comes from Adyashanti. lachen


I was walking through the park on my way home when something happened. Something holy arose from within and took over. I was standing there looking out at the trees and the grass like it was the first time I was seeing them. I was looking at my hands and feeling my body as it moved and I was marvelling at being alive and being in this body. I was acutely aware of being in the world, that I was a separate being in the world. I was enjoying all this as a child would enjoy a new and novel experience. I went over to a tree and grabbed a branch, I touched it softly and then grabbed it firmly, I really wanted to feel the tree, I really wanted to be there with it, to be present, to feel and see and take it all in. I bent down and touched the trunk near the roots, it was very real, very solid to my touch, it felt very alive. I noticed some bare earth around the tree trunk and picked up a chunk and broke it in my hand and watched and felt it crumble and stream through my fingers as it fell down to the earth. I was feeling so primal, so alive, I went around to the other side of the tree where the branches were a little higher off the ground and sqatted under the branches near the tree trunk and put my hand on the trunk and left it there. I was feeling the roots and feeling extremely rooted myself in being. I stayed there for a few minutes, the feelings arising were so intense and overwhelming that tears were streaming down my face. Finally I left the tree and moved closer to the bench and sat and watched the crescent moon in the clear blue sky, there was a very bright star right beside it, so bright that I thought it might be the headlight of a plane heading towards me. I sat there and watched this scene and marvelled at life and being alive.

I finally got up and was going to go inside but I had to walk by the sandbox and I was immediately attracted to the sand. I bent down and started letting the sand run through my fingers, feeling the texture of the grains on the skin of my hand. I dug deeply into the sand and noticed that the sand was very damp when you dug down 3 or 4 inches. And then I found a flat stone. I don't know why this was so fascinating but I was like a little child, I would pick up the stone with a handful of sand and squeeze the sand so it would run through my fingers and then I would feel the hard stone pressing against the flesh of my palm and fingers. It was like finding a treasure, I did this over and over again.

I left the sandbox and moved over to a very large pine tree and grabbed on the branches really hard. I gave a really good pull on it and ripped that piece of branch clean off and allowed the needles to run through my fingers as they fell through the ground. I grabbed two branches, and held on really tight like I was holding hands with the pine tree, I looked up at it and was just present with it for a little while. But things were beginning to feel really intense inside of me so I went inside.

I went in the bedroom to change and got undressed, but when I was completely undressed I was drawn down to my knees and I bent very low with my forehead against the carpet. The energy was flowing like crazy inside, it felt like it was all emanating from the gut area. My head was on the carpet and my gut was much higher since I was still on my knees, this felt right as it had so many times before. Energy was flowing from my gut down through my head and out. But the energy also radiated outwards in all directions at the same time, like a sacred sun was shining in my gut. It was extremely intense and overwhelming and continued for at least 15 minutes.

I have no idea what is going on and I don't care. It feels very right and it makes everything sacred, my own body, and everything else in the world. It's almost a mystical experience at times to be alive.

I'm completely filled by this experience, it's overflowing.

I love you.
Passerby: Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject:

lucid, clear and beautiful, Amadeus.

Reality touches itself, the 'I' doesn't know.
lachen

Like a mandala, with all its vividness, gone!
big grin

Forum Topic: No practice/method/approach (Source: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26273&highlight=#26273 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Passerby: Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:33 am    Post subject:
Larryfroot wrote:
So in one sense there is nothing to do...but in another sense there is lots to do before we are comfortable with impermanence and begin to see it as a friend and not an enemy. All our lives are a painting on water, each stroke is swallowed by the waters of time as soon as it is made. But this reality is the reality that allows true spontenaity, true creativity, true joy...once we live in the radical acceptance of the radical reality of impermanance.


Love this part. lachen

Just to add:
Many love Presence, the background, the reality behind all appearances. If we can dedicate the same love towards appearances and to thoughts, I think that will do; for they are one and the same. Forget about self or no-self if it is confusing. My 2 cents.

Thanks all for the sharing. lachen
Forum Topic: The Final Truth (Source: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2470&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Passerby: Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:

Are there any others???

Am I not just speaking to myself???

There is nothing I can really know.

Apart from the fact that "I am".

And what I mean by that is that there is this knowingness that is shining right now.

I can't (don't want to) move beyond that.

A person in utter sincerity will realize that whenever he attempts to step out of Isness (although he can't), there is complete confusion. In truth, he cannot know anything in reality.
If we haven’t had enough confusion and fear, Isness will not be fully appreciated.

“I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness.” is the ultimate identification.

The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking; it is a matter of living in Beingness or living in constant identification. Beingness flows and identification stays. Identification is any attempt to return to Oneness without knowing its nature is already non-dual.

“I AM” is not knowing. I AM is Being. Being thoughts, Being feelings, Being Forms…There is no separate I from start.

Either there is no you or you are all.
Yougarksoo: Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject:
Passerby, your post is great. Thanks.
Quote:
If we haven’’t had enough confusion and fear, Isness will not be fully appreciated.


lachen
Quote:
““I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness.”” is the ultimate identification.


Doesn't what you are referring to as the ultimate identification only arise if there is a thought which arises and says "I am the witness." If that thought does not arise or there is no identification with it once it arises, then there is only awareness itself?
Quote:
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking;


Can you explain what you mean here?
Quote:
Either there is no you or you are all.

Which is true?
Amadeus: Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:

Are there any others???

Am I not just speaking to myself???

There is nothing I can really know.

Apart from the fact that "I am".

And what I mean by that is that there is this knowingness that is shining right now.

I can't (don't want to) move beyond that.


A person in utter sincerity will realize that whenever he attempts to step out of Isness (although he can't), there is complete confusion. In truth, he cannot know anything in reality.


Wow!!!!

I really like the straighforward way you said this Passerby.

And I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote:
If we haven’t had enough confusion and fear, Isness will not be fully appreciated.


Yes, you can't have two masters, either you're at the point where you're letting it all go or you're still involved in the dream.

Adyashanti said this in another way, he said that just one thought can obscure the truth.
Quote:
“I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness.” is the ultimate identification.


I had to read that twice to make sure I knew what you are saying and surprisingly I can't completely agree because, for me, identification is still another concept that is coming from the story. There is just this, whether I am this, or whether It simply is, is not really something I care to get into. The "I" ultimately for me, feels more like an "Is".
Quote:
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking; it is a matter of living in Beingness or living in constant identification.
Quote:
Beingness flows and identification stays
.


Well said, as the Buddhists would say, everything is transient, ephemeral.
Quote:
Identification is any attempt to return to Oneness without knowing its nature is already non-dual.


That's the whole point isn't it.

Spirituality is just another mind movement and so when you see your true nature is everything and nothing, you're finally able to let that mind movement go and rest in the "Isness" of it all.
Quote:
“I AM” is not knowing. I AM is Being. Being thoughts, Being feelings, Being Forms…There is no separate I from start.


I have realized on several occasions that there is no "I", many great insights and yet the "I" continues to arise. There is absolutely no problem with this, because I recognize it for what it is. Just a phantom of an idea that refuses to die even though all identification has been removed. It's quite stubborn, I suppose ET would say that it has a lot of momentum.
Quote:
Either there is no you or you are all


And the answer can be both, it's a paradox and we can become quite comfortable with that.

Passerby: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject:
Yougarksooo wrote:

Quote:
““I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness.”” is the ultimate identification.


Doesn't what you are referring to as the ultimate identification only arise if there is a thought which arises and says "I am the witness." If that thought does not arise or there is no identification with it once it arises, then there is only awareness itself?

Yes you are right! Thoughts or no thoughts doesn't matter as long as there is no identification.
Quote:

Quote:
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking;


Can you explain what you mean here?

This is difficult to explain. big grin

It is like awareness is at the same speed as the transients and no separation is detected and suddenly realization dawn --This is that, always is and always one!

Our mind is very quick in assigning certain 'attributes' to awareness and the attachment to these attributes distort what awareness really is. As these attributes are hardly exhaustive, it prevents clarity in seeing.
Quote:

Quote:
Either there is no you or you are all.


Which is true?

They meant the same experience. Another way of saying is “When there is no you, you are all” but that implies time and causality. As if “no you” is the cause and “you are all” is the effect.
Passerby: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject:
Quote:

I have realized on several occasions that there is no "I", many great insights and yet the "I" continues to arise. There is absolutely no problem with this, because I recognize it for what it is. Just a phantom of an idea that refuses to die even though all identification has been removed. It's quite stubborn, I suppose ET would say that it has a lot of momentum.

Yes it is and the power of propensities is grossly underestimated. The momentum resulted in creating separation and subtle intentionality. Just don't get too 'stilled'... big grinEven stillness is movement. Just that movement is effortless and spontaneous. It is the sensation as if nothing is moving due to effortlessness and spontaneity. In essence, everything flows, nothing remains.
Passerby: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:

Quote:
“I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness.” is the ultimate identification.


I had to read that twice to make sure I knew what you are saying and surprisingly I can't completely agree because, for me, identification is still another concept that is coming from the story. There is just this, whether I am this, or whether It simply is, is not really something I care to get into. The "I" ultimately for me, feels more like an "Is".

Yes but there are gaps. “When ‘thought’ is, ‘feeling’ is, ‘form’ is, there is naturally no ‘I’.” The entire stream is.

This clarity is a running flow experience that cannot be stop or broken down; and Isness like what you have described in the post “when truth takes over’, is not a mere surface experience of not adding or subtracting anything from this moment. It is an experience of immense realness, clarity and aliveness -- a depth so immensely deep that it can rest upon itself in entirety.

This has to do with a quantum leap in perception, it is not about effort. Otherwise effort will be tremendous and scary.
Yougarksoo: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Thoughts or no thoughts doesn't matter as long as there is no identification.

yea, someone could go on thinking forever, yet never identify with the thought stream. Thanks for joining the conversation.
Amadeus: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:

Quote:
“I am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these, I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness.” is the ultimate identification.


I had to read that twice to make sure I knew what you are saying and surprisingly I can't completely agree because, for me, identification is still another concept that is coming from the story. There is just this, whether I am this, or whether It simply is, is not really something I care to get into. The "I" ultimately for me, feels more like an "Is".

Yes but there are gaps. “When ‘thought’ is, ‘feeling’ is, ‘form’ is, there is naturally no ‘I’.” The entire stream is.


That sounds good to me. big grin
Quote:
This clarity is a running flow experience that cannot be stop or broken down; and Isness like what you have described in the post “when truth takes over’, is not a mere surface experience of not adding or subtracting anything from this moment. It is an experience of immense realness, clarity and aliveness -- a depth so immensely deep that it can rest upon itself in entirety.


Yes, the more I accept life as it is, the more alive I feel, the more real it appears to be. big grin
Quote:
This has to do with a quantum leap in perception, it is not about effort.


Yes, ultimately there's nothing I can do to bring this about, it happens or it doesn't. The only thing I may be able to do is want it. But wanting it may just be the flip side of it already arising. big grin
Eseward: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Just that movement is effortless and spontaneous.

Right action, as described by Lao Tse and Jesus.
Passerby: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:34 am    Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:

Yes, ultimately there's nothing I can do to bring this about, it happens or it doesn't. The only thing I may be able to do is want it. But wanting it may just be the flip side of it already arising. big grin


Whichever way we go, it is the same. There is no beyond, there is only creation of more momentum. When we understand the workings of momentum and 'see' how doings create more imprints, we merely allow momentum to die in its own accord through non-action without re-enforcement. The sense of self must arise because clarity is always there, so when momentum is, sense of self is.

Clarity cannot lie... big grin
Passerby: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:35 am    Post subject:
eseward wrote:
Passerby wrote:
Just that movement is effortless and spontaneous.


Right action, as described by Lao Tse and Jesus.

Yes! I love Lao Tze... big grin
Amadeus: Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject:
Passerby wrote:
Amadeus wrote:

Yes, ultimately there's nothing I can do to bring this about, it happens or it doesn't. The only thing I may be able to do is want it. But wanting it may just be the flip side of it already arising. big grin


Whichever way we go, it is the same. There is no beyond, there is only creation of more momentum. When we understand the workings of momentum and 'see' how doings create more imprints, we merely allow momentum to die in its own accord through non-action without re-enforcement. The sense of self must arise because clarity is always there, so when momentum is, sense of self is.

Clarity cannot lie... big grin


I really liked and recognized this part. big grin
Forum Topic: This Moment As It Is (Source: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27729&highlight=#27729 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Claudia: Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: This Moment As It Is
Quote:
This Moment As It Is

You can become aware of awareness as the background to all your
sense perceptions, all your thinking. Becoming aware of awareness is
the arising of inner stillness.

Any disturbing noise can be as helpful as silence. How?

By dropping your inner resistance to the noise, by allowing it to be
as it is, this acceptance also takes you into that realm of inner
peace that is stillness.

Whenever you deeply accept this moment as it is -- no matter what
form it takes -- you are still, you are at peace.


From: Stillness Speaks, by Eckhart Tolle
Amadeus: Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject:
Quote:
Whenever you deeply accept this moment as it is -- no matter what form it takes -- you are still, you are at peace.


This sentence is conditional, "whenever you do such and such, then you can be still and at peace" and of course this is true.

but it's a relative truth

because when you fully realize your true nature, there are no more conditions, there is only ever your true nature, no matter how you are acting or reacting or what you are feeling

since your true nature is what you are, how could you possibly lose it?
AnEternalNow: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
Quote:
Whenever you deeply accept this moment as it is -- no matter what form it takes -- you are still, you are at peace.


This sentence is conditional, "whenever you do such and such, then you can be still and at peace" and of course this is true.

but it's a relative truth

because when you fully realize your true nature, there are no more conditions, there is only ever your true nature, no matter how you are acting or reacting or what you are feeling

since your true nature is what you are, how could you possibly lose it?


Hi Amadeus, yes that's true. But is this is a logical deduction or a direct experience?

------
Passerby wrote:
The transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking

Amadeus wrote:
Have you noticed that your hair and nails grow all by themselves.

Are you aware of the myriad processes and intricate balances that are necessary to keep your body healthy.

Are we aware of this intelligence, of this life?

Are we truly in touch in with it?

Is this intelligence/life, just in our body or is it in every living and non living thing on the planet and beyond.

Do we really realize how vast we are?


If everything is already intelligent, allow transients to come and go, they are more intelligent than what the ‘I’ thought. Experience the full presence of all transients.
Amadeus: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject:

Hi AEN,

To answer your question, it comes from direct experience, that's all I ever talk about, it all comes from within.

Could you explain a bit more what "transients" are?
AnEternalNow: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject:
Amadeus wrote:
Hi AEN,

To answer your question, it comes from direct experience, that's all I ever talk about, it all comes from within.

Could you explain a bit more what "transients" are?


Transients are orphan thoughts, momentary feelings, short-lived phenomenon lachen
Forum Topic: What is your own, you are not conscious of. (Source: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27671&highlight=#27671 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Amadeus: Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: What is your own, you are not conscious of.
Have you noticed that your hair and nails grow all by themselves.

Are you aware of the myriad processes and intricate balances that are necessary to keep your body healthy.

Are we aware of this intelligence, of this life?

Are we truly in touch in with it?

Is this intelligence/life, just in our body or is it in every living and non living thing on the planet and beyond.

Do we really realize how vast we are?
Amadeus: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject:

The inner body

I personnally think this is the most beautiful message Eckhart Tolle is offering us: instead of being our enemy, our body can be our greatest helper in reaching enlightenment. It can help us in contacting our true inner Self. Let's close our eyes in meditation and feel how consciousness is permeating every cell and every atom of our body. Let's observe from the inside our body and feel It is there. Let's not think or speculate about it. Feel it. It can be felt right at this very moment. We can feel it being the cause of everything. We can feel that if It would not be there, things would not work. By feeling and observing this we get immediate and instant knowledge about It. If we'll concentrate on this inner Body we will reach enlightenment in the end. For in contacting Consciousness our mind makes the shift from form to the formless.

http://home.wxs.nl/~brouw724/EckhartTolle.html
An Eternal Now: Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: What is your own, you are not conscious of.
Amadeus wrote:
The inner body

I personnally think this is the most beautiful message Eckhart Tolle is offering us: instead of being our enemy, our body can be our greatest helper in reaching enlightenment. It can help us in contacting our true inner Self. Let's close our eyes in meditation and feel how consciousness is permeating every cell and every atom of our body. Let's observe from the inside our body and feel It is there. Let's not think or speculate about it. Feel it. It can be felt right at this very moment. We can feel it being the cause of everything. We can feel that if It would not be there, things would not work. By feeling and observing this we get immediate and instant knowledge about It. If we'll concentrate on this inner Body we will reach enlightenment in the end. For in contacting Consciousness our mind makes the shift from form to the formless.

http://home.wxs.nl/~brouw724/EckhartTolle.html


Yes... it is the intensity and the degree of clarity
lachen

Here's something for sharing...

(Ck is my friend)

Ck: john, how to practise vipassana in daily life?
Thusness: just observe every sensation.
Thusness: until one day u are able to experience "emptiness as form".
Thusness: then it becomes effortless.
Thusness: Truthz u cannot imagine the bliss when one clearly experiences that.
Thusness: but there is no point to over stress anything.
Thusness:
lachen
Ck: Thusness just observe every sensation... give me an eg?
Thusness: when u breath, u don't have to care what is the right way of breathing, whether u breath hard or soft, smooth or fine...just experience as much clarity as u can...just that experience...regardless of what it is like.
Thusness: same for all other experiences.
Ck: wot abt sound? hows it?
Thusness: when u hear, just the sound...the totality of the sound. There is no how but just to do away with all abitary thoughts. Hear the sound as clear as u can be.
Ck: then wot abt thots?
Ck: thots r v sticky
weinen
Thusness: thoughts seldom arise if the practice is correct. If it arises, then not to chase after its meaning. Not to answer urself what it means, not to dwell in 'what'...then u will resort to just the moment of awareness.
Ck: when i try to be just openly aware, i notice that i jump from sense to sense
Ck: like one moment hearing, then touch, etc
Thusness: that is okie.
Thusness: our nature is so.
Ck: wots the rite way to do it
Thusness: don't think that u should concentrate.
Thusness: ur only duty is to sense with as much clarity as possible.
Ck: and for all the sensations, i dun dwell in the 'what'?
Thusness: ur mind is looking for a way, a method
Thusness: but what that is needed is only the clarity.
Thusness: however because our mind is so molded and affect by our habitual propensities, it becomes difficult what that is direct and simple.
Thusness: just stop asking 'how', 'what', 'why'.
Thusness: and submerge into the moment.
Thusness: and experience.
Thusness: i perfer u to describe.
Thusness: not to ask how, what, why, when, where and who.
Thusness: only this is necessary.
Ck: ok
Thusness: if u practice immediately, u will understand.
Thusness: if u entertain who, what, where, when and how, u create more propensities and dull ur own luminosity.

------

(AEN = me)

(10:07 PM) Thusness: tell me what u think is awareness?
(10:07 PM) Thusness: in ur own words
(10:07 PM) Thusness: just say
(10:08 PM) AEN: just the knowingness, the sensation or thoughts etc
(10:09 PM) Thusness: look at the skin of ur hands
(10:09 PM) AEN: ok
(10:09 PM) Thusness: looks real?
(10:09 PM) AEN: yea
(10:09 PM) Thusness: touch it...feel it as much as u can
(10:10 PM) Thusness: can u don't think of a background
(10:10 PM) AEN: yea
(10:10 PM) Thusness: and know that, that is awareness?
(10:10 PM) AEN: ya
(10:10 PM) Thusness: that is all.

Forum Topic: Emotions and Enlightenment

Longchen: 11 June 2007 · 10:55 PM

Just my 2 cts...

In a conventional sense, emotions cannot be stopped. Just like all the other sensations that one feels.

When you are in pain, can you say...'I want to stop the pain' and the pain immediately will go away... No one owns the pain therefore it cannot be stopped by 'a self'.

Likewise, any form of trying to stop emotions such as sadness is really modification to the behaviour. But doing that, there is re-enforcement of self.

Spontaneous manifestation is the realisation that any (wish for) modification to behaviour is 'doing of the self'. There is no true rest in trying to modify anything. Seek and you shall not find
Laughing

As a side point, actually, Dzogchen is a very profound teaching. It is impossible to understand the practice before the realisation of non-duality and subsequently spontaneous manifestation. I just felt that some people if they get too attracted to Dzogchen without proper understanding and realisations will only mislead themselves. Dzogchen can only be understood and practice correctly after passing through the initial experience of non-duality. Before that, it may lead to further re-enforcement of 'karmic doing'.

Just my opinion.
An Eternal Now: 12 June 2007 · 12:33 AM

Here is some great advise from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
http://www.dharmamind.net/TM1.htm

...Even if those who begin to practice this find it difficult to continue in this state for more than an instant, there is no need to worry about it. Without wishing for the state to continue for a long time and without fearing the lack of it altogether, all that is necessary is to maintain pure presence of mind, without falling into the dualistic situation of there being an observing subject perceiving an observed object. [n]If the mind, even though one maintains simple presence, does not remain in this calm state, but always tends to follow waves of thoughts about the past or future, or becomes distracted by the aggregates of the senses such as sight, hearing, etc. , then one should try to understand that the wave of thought itself is as insubstantial as the wind. If one tries to catch the wind, one does not succeed; similarly if one tries to block the wave of thought, it cannot be cut off. So for this reason one should not try to block thought, much less try to renounce it as something considered negative. In reality, the calm state is the essential condition of mind, while the wave of thought is the mind's natural clarity in function; just as there is no distinction whatever between the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no distinction between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains thus caught up in the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the ordinary state of mind. Therefore the essential principle is to acknowledge with bare attention, without letting oneself become distracted, whatever thought arises, be it good or bad, important or less important, and to continue to maintain presence in the state of the moving wave of thought itself. When a thought arises and one does not succeed in remaining calm with this presence, since other such thoughts may follow, it is necessary to be skilful in acknowledging it with non-distraction. 'Acknowledging' does not mean seeing it with one's eyes, or forming a concept about it. Rather it means giving bare attention, without distraction to whatever thought of the 'three times', or whatever perception of the senses may arise, and thus being fully conscious of this 'wave' while continuing in the presence of the pure awareness.

It absolutely does not mean modifying the mind in some way, such as by trying to imprison thought or to block its flow.
It is difficult for this acknowledgment with bare attention, without distraction, to last for a long time for someone who is beginning this practice, as a result of strong mental habits of distraction acquired through transmigration in the course of unlimited time. If we only take into consideration this present lifetime, from the moment of our birth right up until the present we have done nothing other than live distractedly, and there has never been an opportunity to train in the presence of awareness and non-distraction. For this reason, until we become no longer capable of entering into distraction, if, through lack of attention, we find ourselves becoming dominated by neglectfulness and forgetfulness, we must try by every means to become aware of what is happening through relying on the presence of mind. There is no 'meditation' that you can find beyond this continuing in one's own true condition with the presence of the calm state, or with the moving wave of thought. Beyond recognition with bare attention and continuing in one's own State, there is nothing to seek that is either very good or very dear...
An Eternal Now: 12 June 2007 · 12:29 PM
quote:

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Here is some great advise from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
http://www.dharmamind.net/TM1.htm

[b]...Even if those who begin to practice this find it difficult to continue in this state for more than an instant, there is no need to worry about it. Without wishing for the state to continue for a long time and without fearing the lack of it altogether, all that is necessary is to maintain pure presence of mind, without falling into the dualistic situation of there being an observing subject perceiving an observed object. [n]If the mind, even though one maintains simple presence, does not remain in this calm state, but always tends to follow waves of thoughts about the past or future, or becomes distracted by the aggregates of the senses such as sight, hearing, etc. , then one should try to understand that the wave of thought itself is as insubstantial as the wind. If one tries to catch the wind, one does not succeed; similarly if one tries to block the wave of thought, it cannot be cut off. So for this reason one should not try to block thought, much less try to renounce it as something considered negative. In reality, the calm state is the essential condition of mind, while the wave of thought is the mind's natural clarity in function; just as there is no distinction whatever between the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no distinction between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains thus caught up in the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the ordinary state of mind. Therefore the essential principle is to acknowledge with bare attention, without letting oneself become distracted, whatever thought arises, be it good or bad, important or less important, and to continue to maintain presence in the state of the moving wave of thought itself. When a thought arises and one does not succeed in remaining calm with this presence, since other such thoughts may follow, it is necessary to be skilful in acknowledging it with non-distraction. 'Acknowledging' does not mean seeing it with one's eyes, or forming a concept about it. Rather it means giving bare attention, without distraction to whatever thought of the 'three times', or whatever perception of the senses may arise, and thus being fully conscious of this 'wave' while continuing in the presence of the pure awareness.

It absolutely does not mean modifying the mind in some way, such as by trying to imprison thought or to block its flow.
It is difficult for this acknowledgment with bare attention, without distraction, to last for a long time for someone who is beginning this practice, as a result of strong mental habits of distraction acquired through transmigration in the course of unlimited time. If we only take into consideration this present lifetime, from the moment of our birth right up until the present we have done nothing other than live distractedly, and there has never been an opportunity to train in the presence of awareness and non-distraction. For this reason, until we become no longer capable of entering into distraction, if, through lack of attention, we find ourselves becoming dominated by neglectfulness and forgetfulness, we must try by every means to become aware of what is happening through relying on the presence of mind. There is no 'meditation' that you can find beyond this continuing in one's own true condition with the presence of the calm state, or with the moving wave of thought. Beyond recognition with bare attention and continuing in one's own State, there is nothing to seek that is either very good or very dear...
[/b]



Thusness thinks this is very good.. it is about self liberation.

Here's more..

...."Therefore, maintaining the presence of one's own State and observing the wave of thought, without judging whether this presence is more or less clear, and without thinking of the calm state and the wave of thought in terms of the acceptance of the one and the rejection of the other, absolutely not conditioned by wanting to change anything whatsoever, one continues without becoming distracted, and without forgetting to keep one’s awareness present; governing oneself in this way one gathers the essence of the practice."....

...In general, in Dzogchen, the Teaching of spontaneous self-perfection, one speaks of the self-liberation of the way of seeing, of the way of meditating, of the way of behaving, and of the fruit, but this self-liberation must arise through the presence of awareness. In particular, the self-liberation of the way of behaving absolutely cannot arise if it is not based on the presence of awareness. So, if one does not succeed in making the self-liberation of one's way of behaving precise, one cannot overcome the distinction between sessions of sitting meditation and one's daily life. When we speak of the self-liberation of one's way of behaving as the fundamental principle of all the tantra, the agama, and the upadesa of Dzogchen, this pleases the young people of today a great deal. But some of them do not know that the real basis of self-liberation is the presence of awareness, and many of them, even if they understand this a little in theory, and know how to speak of it, nevertheless, just the same have the defect of not applying it. If a sick person knows perfectly well the properties and functions of a medicine and is also expert in giving explanations about it, but doesn't ever take the medicine, he or she can never get well. In the same way, throughout limitless time we have been suffering from the serious illness of being subject to the dualistic condition, and the only remedy for this illness is real knowledge of the state of self-liberation without falling into limitations....
Thusness: 12 June 2007 · 12:50 PM

In my opinion, most of what longchen posted about non-duality are all of very good qualities. Mr. Green
quote:


When you are in pain, can you say...'I want to stop the pain' and the pain immediately will go away... No one owns the pain therefore it cannot be stopped by 'a self'.


This is most profound! Not only there is no “I” apart from the arising and ceasing, there is “no mine” in all manifestations. The entire view of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ is a distorted view from start.

An 'I' observing phenomenon happening is 'learnt'. We are molded by our existing mode of perception to 'see' in terms of subject-object division. So much so that even though reality in truth is undivided, we are unable to experience that "there is mere happening, there is no I nor mine".
quote:


Likewise, any form of trying to stop emotions such as sadness is really modification to the behaviour. But doing that, there is re-enforcement of self.
.
.
.
Spontaneous manifestation is the realisation that any (wish for) modification to behaviour is 'doing of the self'. There is no true rest in trying to modify anything. Seek and you shall not find


Cool! There is no stopping. When condition is, manifestation is. Any attempt to stop is doing, is self. The ‘sadness’ is just a mirror that serves as a gender reminder of the latent deep; a subtle identification. Nothing needs to be done other than allowing our own pristine-emptiness nature to manifest spontaneously and unreservedly. Whether there is ‘sadness’ or "peace", still unreserved spontaneity of our luminous nature. Therefore there is no movement and that alone dissolves all.

Lastly, cycle after cycles of furnace until the understanding of self-liberation reaches permanent lucidity. Nothing needs be done, just a quantum leap in insight.
Smile
Thusness: 12 June 2007 · 12:56 PM

quote:

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Here is some great advise from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
http://www.dharmamind.net/TM1.htm

[i]


Truly enlightening. Good stuff!

Identification prevents insight into oneness. Seek not a waveless ocean but understand that both ocean and wave are one and the same.
Smile
Forum Topic: Discernment
JonLS: 14 June 2007 · 01:59 AM

Some people on these boards may speak of discernment.

There is a danger in this.

Because other people may get the idea that discernment is a good thing worth striving for.

And that would be a mistake.

You can't find discernment.

Discernment finds you.

It's only when you let go of looking for anything, that something like discernment, may arise spontaneously from within.

Sometimes letting go of the search, of the need for future, can be most difficult.

We really want our stories to end well.
Mr. Green
Thusness: 14 June 2007 · 10:01 AM

quote:

Originally posted by JonLS:


Some people on these boards may speak of discernment.

There is a danger in this.

Because other people may get the idea that discernment is a good thing worth striving for.

And that would be a mistake.


True!
quote:



You can't find discernment.

Discernment finds you.


therefore

even when there is complete letting go, discernment need not arise.

Effortlessness allows oneness but is not the cause of discernment.
quote:



It's only when you let go of looking for anything, that something like discernment, may arise spontaneously from within.

Sometimes letting go of the search, of the need for future, can be most difficult.

We really want our stories to end well.
Mr. Green


Experiment, try hard, experience and know that the entire holding is 'You'. 'You' do not know and cannot 'let go'.

With the arising of wisdom that sees that there is no 'I' apart from arising and ceasing, spontaneity is seen everywhere. All else is/are holdings.

By the way,

Are raising hands, walking and blinking eyes the act of will? Is there spontaneity in these actions?
Mr. Green

JonLS: 14 June 2007 · 02:14 PM
quote:

By the way,

Are raising hands, walking and blinking eyes the act of will? Is there spontaneity in these actions?


Who's will???
Mr. Green

When you truly have the insight that there is no "you", the question of will doesn't seem to hold much water anymore.
Rolling Eyes
JonLS: 14 June 2007 · 02:28 PM
quote:

'You' do not know and cannot 'let go'.


It seems truly remarkable that you need to experience your own non existence in order to truly live freely and well.

Otherwise, you're trapped in the prison of thought and "doing" and needing to accomplish something, or needing things to unfold the way you want or need them to.

Liberation lies in simply allowing the present moment to unfold as it will.

As Byron Katie says, "When I argue with reality, I lose, but only 100% of the time.
Mr. Green
Forum Topic: The Central Sun
JonLS: 15 June 2007 · 12:40 AM
The Central Sun

I've spoken many times about the inner dimension, how, when it used to open/arise before, it was very overwhelming and painful because it felt so corrosive.

Well the pain and corrosiveness seems to be gone, but the "overwhelmingness" of this when it opens is still present.

There's something else that seems to be happening now, I seem to be aware of the "flip side" effect of this "Central Sun" as I'm feeling like calling it now.

It's not a "Central Sun" of heat and light though, it's a "Central Sun" of pure beingness. It is whole and complete all by Itself, nothing else is really needed.

The "flip side" effect is that when there is energy movement from within, or when something energic emanates from there, then it is felt outwardly as feelings, thoughts that are directly influenced by this pure beingness at the core of my being.

When this pure beingness burst forth this morning I was so taken aback by it that I lost all perspective and was totally lost to the point where I almost felt ill from being totally disoriented. But at no time did this feel wrong, it felt completely right, as if the feelings of the physical/emotional vehicle didn't really matter at all.

So when I say I don't believe a word that I say, I'm really surrendering this outer reality in favour of the inner reality of this "Central Sun" which seems to be the "All" of everything. This is what truly holds all my interest now.

It feels like it's the source of everything and it's also the manifestation itself, but the manifestation, which is what we know when we're awake (not sleeping at night) really feels to be almost unidimensional compared this pure beingness.

I'm really doing a rotten job of expressing this because it's completely overwhelming and totally beyond description.

It also makes me feel that all experience is not really that important and yet this inner experience is so totally overwhelming that I have to admit not knowing whether I'm coming or going and don't really care at all either.

Anywho, I would like to conclude by saying I love you.
Longchen: 15 June 2007 · 08:21 AM

Hi JonLS,

Just my opinions...certainly not definitive
Smile

To me, there is no difference between and no inner and outerr reality. Everything feels right... even the discomfort and pain is due to just this Isness. That means, whether we 'think' it is or not... in reality, manifestation is spontaneous.

Surrendering is the doing of the self. But the act of surrendering is also spontaneously manifesting. Seems like a paradox... but everything is just this spontaneity regardless of whether the mind percieve it as such.

This is very hard for me to describe. There is no inner core and outer experience.... but a continous expression or 'fruition' of the 'experimental nature' that before expression feels like 'raw state of intentions'.

IMO, there is no inner or outer... that is the thinking mind interpreting the experience. That means the inner and outer reality is deduced after the experience. However, the expereince itself may not be characterised by 'innerness'.

Thusness: 15 June 2007 · 09:00 AM
quote:

Originally posted by JonLS:
The Central Sun

I've spoken many times about the inner dimension, how, when it used to open/arise before, it was very overwhelming and painful because it felt so corrosive.

Well the pain and corrosiveness seems to be gone, but the "overwhelmingness" of this when it opens is still present.

There's something else that seems to be happening now, I seem to be aware of the "flip side" effect of this "Central Sun" as I'm feeling like calling it now.

It's not a "Central Sun" of heat and light though, it's a "Central Sun" of pure beingness. It is whole and complete all by Itself, nothing else is really needed.

The "flip side" effect is that when there is energy movement from within, or when something energic emanates from there, then it is felt outwardly as feelings, thoughts that are directly influenced by this pure beingness at the core of my being.

When this pure beingness burst forth this morning I was so taken aback by it that I lost all perspective and was totally lost to the point where I almost felt ill from being totally disoriented. But at no time did this feel wrong, it felt completely right, as if the feelings of the physical/emotional vehicle didn't really matter at all.

So when I say I don't believe a word that I say, I'm really surrendering this outer reality in favour of the inner reality of this "Central Sun" which seems to be the "All" of everything. This is what truly holds all my interest now.

It feels like it's the source of everything and it's also the manifestation itself, but the manifestation, which is what we know when we're awake (not sleeping at night) really feels to be almost unidimensional compared this pure beingness.

I'm really doing a rotten job of expressing this because it's completely overwhelming and totally beyond description.

It also makes me feel that all experience is not really that important and yet this inner experience is so totally overwhelming that I have to admit not knowing whether I'm coming or going and don't really care at all either.

Anywho, I would like to conclude by saying I love you.


Hi Jonls,

Would like to share with u my view. There are good and bad news.

1. There is health issue.
2. The bond of “pain and disease” are deconstructed to a very high degree.
3. Non-identification to that health issue becomes the door of experiencing the further depth of pure beingness.
4. The intensity of that pure sensation that arises due to that health issue almost reaches a point of transcendence. A very high degree of clarity of sensation.

Though deconstructed the issue is still there. So do take care of yourself, din.
Thusness: 15 June 2007 · 09:14 AM
quote:

Originally posted by JonLS:
It feels like it's the source of everything and it's also the manifestation itself, but the manifestation, which is what we know when we're awake (not sleeping at night) really feels to be almost unidimensional compared this pure beingness.


Now I would like to comment from a practitioner point of view:

The intensity of that pure beingness is itself a manifestation. It is needless to compare as there will also come a point where high intensity of clarity will be experienced for all sensations. So try not to let the 'intensity' creates the layering of inner and outer.
Mr. Green
Thusness: 15 June 2007 · 09:30 AM
quote:

Originally posted by longchen:
Hi JonLS,

Just my opinions...certainly not definitive
Smile

To me, there is no difference between and no inner and outerr reality. Everything feels right... even the discomfort and pain is due to just this Isness. That means, whether we 'think' it is or not... in reality, manifestation is spontaneous.

Surrendering is the doing of the self. But the act of surrendering is also spontaneously manifesting. Seems like a paradox... but everything is just this spontaneity regardless of whether the mind percieve it as such.

This is very hard for me to describe. There is on inner core and outer experience.... but a continous expression or 'fruition' of the 'experimental nature' that before expression feels like 'raw state of intentions'.

IMO, there is no inner or outer... that is the thinking mind interpreting the experience. That means the inner and outer reality is deduced [b]after
the experience. However, the expereince itself may not be characterised by 'innerness'.[/b]



Must be intoxicated by the spontaniety and openess but just don't miss that clarity, the texture and fabric of awareness as forms....
Mr. Green

Good Luck!
Thusness: 15 June 2007 · 09:32 AM

The mind likes to categorize and is quick to identify.

When we think that awareness is permanent, we fail to 'see' the impermanence aspect of it.

When we see it as formless, we missed the vividness of the fabric and texture of awareness as forms.

When we are attached to ocean, we seek a waveless ocean, not knowing that both ocean and wave are one and the same.

Manifestations are not dust on the mirror, the dust is the mirror. All along there is no dust, it becomes dust when we identify with a particular speck and the rest becomes dust.
Mr. Green
Longchen: 15 June 2007 · 10:50 AM

quote:

Originally posted by Thusness:


Must be intoxicated by the spontaniety and openess but just don't miss that clarity, the texture and fabric of awareness as forms....
Mr. Green

Good Luck!


Hehheh... Mr. Green

Thanks for the reminder...
Longchen: 15 June 2007 · 10:57 AM
quote:

Originally posted by Thusness:


Hi Jonls,

Would like to share with u my view. There are good and bad news.

1. There is health issue.
2. The bond of “pain and disease” are deconstructed to a very high degree.
3. Non-identification to that health issue becomes the door of experiencing the further depth of pure beingness.
4. The intensity of that pure sensation that arises due to that health issue almost reaches a point of transcendence. A very high degree of clarity of sensation.

Though deconstructed the issue is still there. So do take care of yourself, din.


Oops... i didn't know that there might be a health issue.

Take care Jon.
Thusness: 15 June 2007 · 11:35 AM
quote:

Originally posted by longchen:


Oops... i didn't know that there might be a health issue.

Take care Jon.


I shouldn't have put it that way. Got carried away.

Sorry Jonls...might be false alarm.
Embarassed
JonLS: 16 June 2007 · 01:05 PM

quote:

Originally posted by Thusness:


I shouldn't have put it that way. Got carried away.

Sorry Jonls...might be false alarm.
Embarassed


Hi Thusness,

There is no health issue related to this transformation of consciousness as Eckhart calls it.

Everything is being deconstructed, I'm totally lost and yet I can't seem to take this lostness very seriously.

What you said here sounds very important to me:
quote:

The mind likes to categorize and is quick to identify.

When we think that awareness is permanent, we fail to 'see' the impermanence aspect of it.

When we see it as formless, we missed the vividness of the fabric and texture of awareness as forms.

When we are attached to ocean, we seek a waveless ocean, not knowing that both ocean and wave are one and the same.

Manifestations are not dust on the mirror, the dust is the mirror. All along there is no dust, it becomes dust when we identify with a particular speck and the rest becomes dust.



The mind is indeed always grasping, it can't stand the openness or the absolute emptiness.
Thusness: 16 June 2007 · 06:56 PM
quote:

Originally posted by JonLS:


The mind is indeed always grasping, it can't stand the openness or the absolute emptiness.


Yes but when there is permanent lucidity in seeing awareness as forms in spontaneous manifestation, one find delights in emptiness and no-self.

I like the post u wrote in the thread "when truth takes over". Do u find the same intensity of presence in breathing, swallowing saliva, when ur feet touches the ground, hearing the drumbeats of footsteps...?
Thusness: 17 June 2007 · 11:06 AM
quote:

Originally posted by longchen:
Surrendering is the doing of the self. But the act of surrendering is also spontaneously manifesting. Seems like a paradox... but everything is just this spontaneity regardless of whether the mind percieve it as such.
.
.
This is very hard for me to describe.


Missed this part:
There is the deep realisation of no-self as non-dual nature and impermance as the spontaneous nature of awareness, still the not so good aspect, i.e -- the incessant function of the consciousness to form imprints upon itself, is left out as part of the nature...hehe....
Mr. Green

Perhaps you were to add 'imprints and propensities' into part of its nature and see that the impact is as great as the first 2 doors "no-self and impermanence"; then the bits and pieces may to fall into place.

The third door - suffering.
The insight into the incessant function of the consciousness to form imprints upon itself.


These are the 3 dharma seals. In a moment of arising, all these characteristics come into play and that is why it is hard to explain. To truly 'do nothing', 'imprints and propensities' must also be correctly understood like no-self and impermanence. Otherwise there is subtle pre-conscious rejection and unknowingly we re-enforced f imprints.

So in truth when the ‘insight’ into our true nature isn’t there, there is no true ‘non-action’. We cannot ‘surrender to what is’ in an ultimate sense as there is no separation in the first place; either there is true ‘no-self spontaneity’ or isn’t. All else are skillful means devised to bring about the realization of our buddha nature.

Hope this helps to explain in a conventional sense to the mind.

Just for sharing!
Smile
Longchen: 17 June 2007 · 12:49 PM
quote:

Originally posted by Thusness:


Missed this part:
There is the deep realisation of no-self as non-dual nature and impermance as the spontaneous nature of awareness, still the not so good aspect, i.e -- the inceasant function of the consciousness to form imprints upon itself, is left out as part of the nature...hehe....
Mr. Green

Perhaps you were to add 'imprints and propensities' into part of its nature and see that the impact is as great as the first 2 doors "no-self and impermanence"; then the bits and pieces may to fall into place.

[b]The third door - suffering.
The insight into the incessant function of the consciousness to form imprints upon itself.


These are the 3 dharma seals. In a moment of arising, all these characteristics come into play and that is why it is hard to explain. To truly 'do nothing', 'imprints and propensities' must also be correctly understood like no-self and impermanence. Otherwise there is subtle pre-conscious rejection and unknowingly we re-enforced f imprints.

So in truth when the ‘insight’ into our true nature isn’t there, there is no true ‘non-action’. We cannot ‘surrender to what is’ in an ultimate sense as there is no separation in the first place; either there is true ‘no-self spontaneity’ or isn’t. All else are skillful means devised to bring about the realization of our buddha nature.

Hope this helps to explain in a conventional sense to the mind.

Just for sharing! Smile
[/b]

I see... Thanks a lot, Thusness Smile
Thusness: 17 June 2007 · 03:44 PM
quote:

Originally posted by JonLS:
Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

Sometimes, I am amazed how intense awareness is and how fully I am aware of and fully inhabiting the body. Very Happy

Sometimes it is so intense, there is so much energy, that the body itself seems to be overwhelmed.


Yes nothing can express it. Just don't let our perceptions and interpretations step in to restrict the all pervadingness!...
Mr. Green
JonLS: 18 June 2007 · 03:05 AM
quote:

Originally posted by Thusness:


Yes nothing can express it. Just don't let our perceptions and interpretations step in to restrict the all pervadingness!...
Mr. Green


Good point!

The mind just loves to grasp!
Mr. Green
Forum Topic: Movement and thought (Source: http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27905&highlight=#27905 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Claudia: Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Movement and thought

The other day, I had a chore to do and I resisted doing it for about an hour. The thought would come in to go take care of the strawberries and then I would resist it, I wanted to read the net or whatever.

Then, I found myself getting up with no thought happening, and inside I said "oh, i guess it's time to take care of the berries" and that's what I did.

It happened again similarly the next day. Suddenly I got up.

So is this what is meant by action happens with no doer? Consciousness moves me to take care of the berries?

Often folks on here will say there is no one typing the message, that typing is happening without thought. I find that hard to understand because so often the message appears to be egoic and thought based. Aren't 99.9% of our actions thought based? Is that ok? Where does the thought come from that propels someone to go outside and plant something? Is it egoic or is it consciousness moving you without thought to do something? Does consciousness move us with thought?

It's not easy being a puppet, sometimes.
Passerby: Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Movement and thought

Hi Claudia,

Just for sharing:
Claudia wrote:
Then, I found myself getting up with no thought happening, and inside I said "oh, i guess it's time to take care of the berries" and that's what I did.

It happened again similarly the next day. Suddenly I got up.

So is this what is meant by action happens with no doer?


An 'I' observing phenomenon happening is 'learnt'. We are molded by our existing mode of perception to 'see' in terms of subject-object division. So much so that even though reality in truth is undivided, we are unable to experience that "there is mere happening, there is no doer".
Claudia wrote:

Aren't 99.9% of our actions thought based?

You may want to try this:
Without using the thought of 'I', how is 'I' experienced?
This is similar to observing the gap between 2 moments of thought and shed light into the possibility of no-thought. This trains the luminosity aspect of consciousness but still the truth of 'no doer' will not be obvious.
Quote:

Is that ok?

It is okie as after the experience of no-thought, it will not take long for one to realise that even being 'no-thought' doesn't lead to liberation. One is then taken to observe the nature of 'thought between 2 moments of gap'.

This continues till the insight penetrates deeply into the realisation that 'thought' or no-thought doesn't really matter. Thought arises and subsides, there is no doer. There is happening but there never was an 'I'. Thinking that there is an 'I' doing something, is the problem of all problems.

Hope this doesn't cause more confusions.
Forum Topic: The gap (Source:  http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28152&highlight=#281525 ~ Now-For-You Forum)
Marcelo: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:17 am    Post subject: The gap
When you're thinking a lot and not aware of the thinking, the reality you see is like a dense wall.
When you notice thoughts, the wall of reality becomes a dusty surface.

Noticing thoughts leads you to the be aware of the duality of thinking. If there is a state of thinking, there must also be a state of no-thinking.

Then you notice that, if there is a dusty surface, there must also be a non-dusty surface. When you notice this, you begin to clean the dusty surface. Dust gives place to light. Thinking gives place to little gaps of no-thinking. The more you see the light that shines through these gaps, the more you notice that the surface of reality, in fact, is a mirror. This light doesn't come from nowhere but yourself.
Amadeus: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:38 am    Post subject:

Mr Clean is here!!!

I'm here to clean up the dust and clear the air!!!
cool
Passerby: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: The gap
marcelo wrote:
When you're thinking a lot and not aware of the thinking, the reality you see is like a dense wall.
When you notice thoughts, the wall of reality becomes a dusty surface.

Noticing thoughts leads you to the be aware of the duality of thinking. If there is a state of thinking, there must also be a state of no-thinking.

Then you notice that, if there is a dusty surface, there must also be a non-dusty surface. When you notice this, you begin to clean the dusty surface. Dust gives place to light. Thinking gives place to little gaps of no-thinking. The more you see the light that shines through these gaps, the more you notice that the surface of reality, in fact, is a mirror. This light doesn't come from nowhere but yourself.


Maybe all along it wasn't dusty at all... it becomes dusty when identification is made on a particular speck of dust looking at others... big grin
Passerby: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: The gap
Quote:

I'm here to clean up the dust and clear the air!!!

The more dusty it becomes. big grin
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