Posted by: Soh
A conversation with Thusness:

John Tan
11:39pm
John Tan
First u must have clarity of the cause of suffering and cyclical existence before u link here and there. The student bites the finger bring u out of conceptuality but does not bring us out of ignorance.
John Tan
11:51pm
John Tan
See non-conceptuality and conceptuality as empty appearances like pure sound and scenery... they are of equal status, no special hierarchy. Over-skewing towards either is a disservice. If you see a vivid clear rainbow even in non-conceptual mode, if you chase after rainbow without realizing its causal dependencies and empty nature, how is grasping released? If you want to see its dependence arising then initial phase of inferring is necessary. Both must work hand in hand.
Soh
11:59pm
Soh
oic..
John Tan
12:00am
John Tan
And don't understand what you meant about God and Man, conventionally valid and invalid...there are differences between what is valid cognitions among different schools. Even in Madhyamaka between Prasangika (consequent) and Svatantrika (autonomy) school, so you are referring to which one?
Soh
12:00am
Soh
oic.. im not sure lol i havent read up yet
John Tan
12:02am
John Tan
Lol... if you talk about snake and rope, is there certain definite characteristics inherent in snake and rope? If there isn't, how do you differentiate between snake and rope?
Svatantrika says yes and prasangika says no, therefore their definitions of valid cognitions also differ.
So if you are not familiar, just use your existing realizations and experiences to bring you step by step towards clarity of what exactly give rise to suffering and the release of it... don't have to use terms that you are not familiar... confuse yourself and confuse me...lol
Soh
12:12am
Soh
lol.. ic
John Tan
12:12am
John Tan
In your direct realization of anatta, besides the direct taste vivid presence in the 6 entires and exits, what else is realized?
Soh
12:19am
Soh
no agency, so everything is happening on its own, and is disjoint without any linking self and releasing
John Tan
12:20am
John Tan
U taste a freedom, a release, a let go...
So u must realize the differences between non-conceptuality, non-duality as freedom from subject/object dichotomy and freedom from extremes of seeing selflessness in both subject and object.
Soh
12:31am
Soh
ic..
John Tan
12:44am
John Tan
So in Buddhism it is this insight of selflessness that frees one from suffering and cyclical existence. We are not used to this mode of perception and anatta is that first direct experiential taste. So what is object/subject without characteristics and essence? What is cause and effect with inherency? What do we mean by interaction if no essence is found? Bringing this insight of selflessness to all these conventions and understand it thoroughly to realize the conditionality (in contrast to cause and effect) and empty non-arising nature of self and phenomena is prajna wisdom.
John Tan
12:55am
John Tan
Is this current thought free from the previous thought? Does the previous thought meet the current thought? Is this present thought completely free or completely determined by previous thought? You can understand "conditionality" by observing this, the nature of thoughts and nature of experience. Conditionality is neither determinism nor free will...it is the middle path, the "cause and effect" of Buddhism.
John Tan
12:59am
John Tan
So don't look elsewhere, look directly into your experience.
Soh
1:20am
Soh
What is cause and effect with inherency? --> u mean without
John Tan
1:20am
John Tan
Yeah
If we continue to look for the carrying medium between 2 moment of thoughts, profound insight of anatta will not arise and non-locality will not dawn. Our mode of perception will be obscured by the inherent way of understanding things.
Soh
1:29am
Soh
oic..
its like listening to music... the previous note never 'caused' the current note... yet without the previous note the current note will not be played. its conditioned arising but without causal agent
is that right?
John Tan
1:38am
John Tan
Yes. Look into your experience. It is directly pointing at the nature of experience.
Soh
1:38am
Soh
oic..
Soh
9:53am
Soh
its misleading that some people explains emptiness and the dharmakaya as the formless I AM
its like ken wilber
John Tan
10:16am
John Tan
Yes
John Tan
10:45am
John Tan
When listening to music, the beautiful music is formed from the flowing notes but each note when hit is already gone. How is it that we can still hear the music? It is said that "music" is a convention designated in dependence on it parts -- the flowing notes. The "music" is empty and non-arising. The notes never really "meet" each other, never caused each other yet the current note depends on the previous to be played. So "conditionality" but not a causal agent having the inherent power to effect. What is this telling you about designation, emptiness, conditionality and dependent arising? They r telling u the nature of experience, the nature of mind.
John Tan
10:55am
John Tan
So no, buddhism is not Awareness teaching. Not just about the luminous clarity but to realize non-arising emptiness and dependent arising of this luminous clarity and phenomena. See how this realization liberates the mind from its deepest grasping and release itself from the chain of afflictive dependent origination.
John Tan
11:01am
John Tan
U don't hv to drop conceptuality for non-conceptuality but see how both conceptuality and non-conceptuality r empty and non-arisen. That is seeing the pervasiveness of emptiness as absolute truth in all phenomena.
Soh
11:08am
Soh
ic..
John Tan
11:13am
John Tan
I really dun understand y one wants to cherry pick so much. Y can't just let Buddhism b Buddhism.
0 Responses