Posted by: Soh
Soh:

Earlier today I discussed with Thusness... I'm writing based on the discussion.

When we think of a label or a designation, it is dead, fixed and static... how is this designation made "alive"?

Seeing "things as they are" is not seeing non-conceptually without adding and subtracting anything from isness.. rather it is seeing impermanence, dependent arising and non-arising of phenomena so that mind can be released from grasping. So how is consciousness-nama-rupa understood to see its dependent arising and non-arising in conventionality? How should designation be understood in a thoroughly fluid, inseparable, dependent arising and non-arisen way?

There is a term in Gelug Prasangika by Tsongkhapa, it is termed
"appropriation"... it is closely related to total exertion. Also to
understand deeply, apply the insight of "a dream in a dream" where
symbols and appearances are fully enacted as one, neither same nor
different.

See through first how reifications arise and the deconstruction of these reifications in direct experience (anatta and 2 folds) and then how to correctly apply conventionality as a semblance to "what is".

19 hrs · Edited · Like · 4

John Ahn: Soh

    I wondered about this as well. There is a point in practice where the designations indeed do come alive (I'm not sure if Thusness means the same thing). There is a natural flow and interaction between the conventionality and direct non conceptual experience of passing sound. It's an emergence of a very flexible intelligence. One no longer holds a view of "how the world is." Labels arise in accordance with convenience and functionality and they are experienced with the same taste as the passing senses.

    Just as conventions, memories, projection, etc are seen as labels arising dependent on direct experience, previous knowledge, language, situation, etc. there is no difference in the nature of their arising than the direct feet-touch-ground. The direct feet-touch-ground is also no more "real" than the conventions either. The arising dependent on conditions has no more reality than the arising dependent on designations. The label "chair" is just as real and just as false as the experience of the form of "chair" dependent on eye and material causation. "What is" is effortless dependent arising, there is truly no other "what is."

    So how does reification arise...the main culprit IME is wrong view and identification. Both identification and reification are the same mistake of assuming inherent reality of a particular pattern of arising. For instance when we think that designations are more real than pure sensory data as most people do, we reify the mind. If we reify sensory data as more real than the designations that is what many physicalists do unknowingly.

    The moment we reify something as more real identification arises immediately. Even if we hold a certain view as more "real," identity hides behind the one holding that view, regardless whether that view is of selflessness or emptiness. So some people try to get rid of views, which is..unfortunately another view. A view must become experience that is authenticated in all moments, and that is the view of dependent arising.

    So which comes first..reification or identification..I'd say they are the same aspect: subject-action-object. A self perpetuating circle.
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    Stian Gudmundsen Høiland: A dead, fixed and static label or designation "comes alive" when... how to explain...

    Seeing impermanence, a through-and-through lack of 'staying'.

    Dependent arising means seeing the process of designation. It is *process* (dependent arising)—absence of substance (emptiness).

    Absence of substance means non-arising of phenomena. It means that whatever imputed is merely imputed—nothing real, not inherent.

    Seeing the inter-action and dependency between consciousness and nama-rupa demonstrates "live-ness"—meaning both "occurring right now, continually" and "dynamically expressive".

    That is the thoroughly fluid, inseparable, dependent, non-arisen nature.

    A dead, fixed and static label or designation "comes alive" when it is seen live—occurring right now, continually—that the designation is actualized or exerted by and through "a mesh/web/net of inter-relations/relativity": Air is air and nothing else, when it is experienced in relation to a breathing body.

    This vision has a sense of mere reflection, a hall of mirrors, like a kaleidoscope, clockwork, or a continually tilting holographic image. Nothing static is found, except, the essence is unmoved—like water poured into water: What alteration is there?
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    Stian Gudmundsen Høiland It is a live seeing that air is air because it is being breathed.

    The profundity of just that... the dependence of this on that.

    Of course, saying "air is air because it is being breathed" is a drastic simplification of what is actually seen, but it would be rather useless to go on about it. That simplified sentence gives the gist, but the vision is all-'round, all-inclusive, limitless, undivided.
    10 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 2
    Ej Alex Reminds me of this:
    "Breathing in, sky becomes breath. Breathing out, breath becomes sky."
    http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.de/2013/10/breathing.html
    Awakening to Reality: Breathing
    awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
    10 hrs · Unlike · 4 · Remove Preview
    Stian Gudmundsen Høiland: WWZC (White Wind Zen Community) has to be one of the most authentic Buddhist communities around today.
    10 hrs · Edited · Like
    Soh: Thusness wrote:

    Both of what John Ahn: and Stian expressed r very insightful. They bring more "life" to the designations.

    Stian is expressing it very well. When Dogen rows the boat, the rowing makes the boat a boat and makes the hand, the sea, wooden oars and the movement of the boat into the "rowing". The designations turns "alive" yet r like mere reflections.

    Why is it like water pouring in water? Because one tastes the hand, the sea, the wooden oars going beyond their designated boundaries into one seamless (like pour water in water) action of rowing. There is no self, only that action of rowing.

    With anatta and dependent arising, u will feel immense inter-relatedness yet empty like reflections even in the world of conceptualities.

    The father is dependent on the son and the son makes the father a father. Don't just look at the logic, see how much emotions and love are invested in them. There are no "things" and "world" other than that.

    So not just what that is direct, clean, brilliance, non-dual, non-conceptual and transparent is empty like space; u must re-enter the world, dirty ur hands and see conventionalities with this new found insights of selflessness and DO...see the whole chain of arisings...so intricate yet empty like reflections.
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