Just spoke to someone who mentioned he realized anatta and has stabilised it. Previously he has gone through the I AM.

But on further discussion it turns out what he refers to 'anatta' is what I call 'non-doership'. I told him,

"what's important is that in the midst of vivid manifestation, like hearing a sound, seeing a scenery, it can be realized that 'Awareness' and 'Witnessing' is none other than the sound, the colors, and so on, and there is no background agent, knower, seer, hearer,. this will lead to the collapsing of an agent and Witness into vivid luminous manifestation without needing to enter a state of nothingness


in the midst of vivid manifestation nirvana is seen, like in bahiya sutta. in the seen only the seen without you in terms of that and that is the end of suffering



there is a realization involving the complete seamlessness of subject-action-object, realizing that there is no seer besides seeing besides seen, the dualistic structure gets seen through and collapses



the actualization of anatta will dissolve any centerpoint or Witness



is your no-mind experience like 'there is no cold or heat' stable or only passing glimpses in meditation? is the sense of dualistic subject/object witnessing persistent in daily experience?"



 
He mentioned that his experience of no-mind of "there's just experience no one experiencing anything just experience" is only fleeting glimipses throughout the day, whereas his sense of Subject/Object Witnessing is persistent throughout his daily experience. Also in his glimpses of no-mind, "What I experienced was when I let go of all Concepts ideas everything what remained was experience alone. And suffering truly ended there"


I told him the experience no-mind is not the same as the realization of anatta.

All phenomena happening by itself spontaneously and causally (via dependent origination) on its own, without the sense of doership or control, is not what I call anatta realization.

I told him, "i see, in that case i would consider that you are experiencing as non-doership, but the realization of anatta has not arisen.. once the realization of anatta in the sense of complete seeing through of the construct and sense of a seer-seeing-seen, the no-mind will become effortless and the tendency to fall back to subject-object witnessing will dissolve


the realization is as i described in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/10/my-commentary-on-bahiya-sutta.html

and https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-wind-is-blowing.html"




He asked, "
Ok. So this is your recommendation of where to start correct?"


I told him, 

"contemplate on bahiya sutta and challenge any sense of a seer, witnessing, seeing, hearing, as existing by its own side as anything other than the sound, color, sensation, etc. until a sudden realization arises that what you call 'witnessing' and 'awareness'... or 'seeing' is only colors, 'hearing' is only sound, never a seer or hearer beside



i think these links will clarify things for you, https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/11/no-mind-and-anatta-focusing-on-insight.html and also the article and comments by thusness at the comments section can be helpful - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html
"

 


I do not have the slightest trace of subject/object duality for about the past 8 years after the realization of anatta. Before realization of anatta I was switching between Witness and glimpses of No Mind for some time.
[18/12/18, 1:49:40 PM] John Tan: For communication purpose, it is necessary to point out this clarity
[18/12/18, 1:50:43 PM] John Tan: And one need also to realize the "clarity" pointed is simply a convention.
[18/12/18, 1:51:01 PM] John Tan: After these 2 pointings, what is realized?
[18/12/18, 2:07:10 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta.. in the seen just the seen. Awareness is not existing by its own side, perceiving phenomena but is phenomena
[18/12/18, 2:07:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I think this is not directly mentioned in the book. It sees everything as just names but it doesn’t say awareness is a name imputed on the self luminous manifestation
[18/12/18, 2:08:25 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Rather it says the space like awareness is ground and cause of everything
[18/12/18, 2:08:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Sounds like source to me
[18/12/18, 2:16:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Actually I much prefer the mn1 sutta over many Dzogchen teachings, much more resonating with my insight. No source at all, Buddha say any view of emanation is wrong.. not skilful to conceive things coming out of infinite space, infinite consciousness, etc
[18/12/18, 2:17:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Is like in the seen just the seen.. no coming out of, no I, me, mine, just direct perception
[18/12/18, 2:23:58 PM] Soh Wei Yu: "He directly knows water as water... the All as the All...

"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you."
[18/12/18, 2:25:09 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Even seung Sahn and his successors are unable to overcome the notion of source. And it seems many Dzogchen Teachers also

(note: I am by no means well-versed in Dzogchen and I'm sure there are many Dzogchen teachers that are very deeply realized, also I'm referring to some of expressions of some of the modern teachers I've read. Some of the old Dzogchen texts I've read are very good and resonating)
 
‎[18/12/18, 2:48:20 PM] Soh Wei Yu: ‎image omitted
[18/12/18, 2:48:42 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Their emptiness insight is like saying reflections cannot be established as anything other than the mirror
[18/12/18, 2:48:58 PM] Soh Wei Yu: But anatta is more like mirror cannot be established as anything other than reflections lol
[18/12/18, 2:49:23 PM] Soh Wei Yu: This is not spoken and the no mirror insight is only expressed by Prabodha and Abhaya Devi that I know. Never seen it anywhere else in Dzogchen
[18/12/18, 2:50:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: In Soto zen it is commonly expressed
[18/12/18, 2:50:43 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Even today
[18/12/18, 3:13:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: No wonder Greg Goode says Dzogchen sounds too much like advaita to him

{quotes a book}

[18/12/18, 3:53:15 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Was just reminded of
[18/12/18, 3:53:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: What u wrote in 2009:


What's seen is Awareness. What's heard is Awareness. All experiences are non-dual in nature. However this non-dual luminosity cannot be understood apart from the ‘causes and conditions’ of arising. Therefore do not see ‘yin’ as Awareness interacting with external conditions. If you see it as so, then it still falls in the category of mirror-reflecting. Rather see it as an instantaneous manifestation where nothing is excluded. As if the universe is giving its very best for this moment to arise. A moment is complete and non-dual. Vividly manifest and thoroughly gone leaving no traces.”
[18/12/18, 3:54:59 PM] Soh Wei Yu: The way I understand is that this book I'm reading, including many other Teachers, explain dependent origination in terms of awareness interacting with external conditions in the form of mirror reflecting
[18/12/18, 3:55:33 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Very unlike how Hong wen Liang, Dogen, Hakuun yasutani and other Soto zen masters explain about total exertion and no mirror
[18/12/18, 3:56:07 PM] John Tan: It is very difficult to bring out the point
[18/12/18, 4:02:12 PM] John Tan: As whatever can b expressed is easily reified, objectified and grasped instead of realizing it is merely pointing at seen, heard, sensed ...all 6 entries and exits, nothing beyond.  The conventions created artificial boundaries when there is none. So vipassana is taught but not the 3 seals needs to go hand in hand with the luminous manifestation.
[18/12/18, 4:04:01 PM] Soh Wei Yu: But not the 3 seals?
[18/12/18, 4:04:36 PM] John Tan: Not just the 3 seals
[18/12/18, 4:07:13 PM] Soh Wei Yu: U mean not just the 3 seals is impt but must go with luminous manifestation?
[18/12/18, 4:09:02 PM] John Tan: Otherwise it becomes just a mindful reminder but vipassana is a direct insight.

André A. Pais wrote:

A few reflections, probably out of sync with Stian's view, but anyway...

Super-Matrix of Pure Mind like Space.

Matrix means an interconnected, interwoven, interpenetrating web of streams of information - information being nothing but pure causality.

Super-Matrix means that this matrix is really big and vast, since it is the whole universe, the whole of reality, the whole of existence - All That Is.

Mind means that every single stream of information is nothing but mind, since unknown information is no information at all - much like a known object is nothing without a knowing awareness. Information is mind, mind is information.

Pure and like Space, means that whenever one tries to pinpoint what this mind really is, what any type of information really is, one always comes up empty-handed - like one is trying to grab empty space. There is never any final obstruction that is found, some essence or core around which one could lay our grasping hands. Mind is pure of any conceptual identity, any division, any characteristic.

"Mind is gaplessly integrated with the field of phenomena". I really like this expression. Mind is part of the universe. It is either one with it, or independent of it. To be independent is nonsensical. To be one with the universe means that it loses its self-identity. Mind is nothing but the luminously conditional phenomena. There is only the field of conditioned phenomena, unsubstantial, dependently arisen according to concepts but always dream-like under scrutiny.

Concerning omniscience, I wrote some time ago:

Omniscience entails the profound calming of the complex structures of consciousness we call mind into the very subtle structures of consciousness we call matter. Minds can be seen as islands in the vast ocean of rudimentary conscious matter. Once minds are able of tapping into that grid of universal information, omniscience becomes natural.

Since all phenomena, whether seemingly inert or organic from a macroscopic point-of-view, are in fact intrinsically programmed with intelligence or pure consciousness, there is no solid frontier or unsurmountable threshold to be overcome by the mind when attempting to reach across space in search for information.

A mind reading another mind is impossible if the space and the skulls between them are composed of inert, unconscious or unreactive matter. Yet, if even tiny particles of air, space or flesh and bone are suffused with intelligent openness (the interpenetrative programming allowing their functioning), then there is no ultimate frontier between both minds.

Imagine a world, like ours, made of water and land. Both supply each other with obstacles, preventing one another from moving freely and getting in touch in more of their own substance. However, if there is only water, for example, regardless of its different forms or states, then communication can happen, for everything shares the same nature.
Related: Buddha's Path Is to Experience Reality

Four Foundations of Mindfulness: The Direct Path to Liberation


Sensation, the Key to Satipatthāna
Vol.4 No.1 January 1994
Words of Dhamma

Sāriputto etadacova: Kimārammaṇā, samiddhi, purisassa saṅkappavitakkā uppajjantī"ti? "Nāmarūpārammaṇā, Bhante"ti.
"Te pana, Samiddhi, kiṃsamosaraṇā"ti? "Vedanāsamosaraṇā, bhante"ti.

- Sariputta spoke thus: "What is the base, Samiddhi, from which thoughts and reflections arise in men?" "From the base of mind and matter, sir."
"And what, Samiddhi, accompanies them?"
"Sensation accompanies them, sir."

-Samādhi Sutta, Aṅguttara Nikāya, IX. ii. 4 (14)

Sensation, The Key to Satipatthāna
-by S N Goenka

Whatever truth is outside can be found within as well; whatever is within also exists outside. We may accept truth out of devotion or intellectual conviction, but in order to apprehend it directly we must explore within, to experience truth within ourselves. By thus coming face to face with truth, we can develop experiential wisdom that will make a real change in our lives.
The meditator starts investigation from a superficial level at which gross, solidified truths appear. But as one observes the apparent truth objectively, one starts penetrating from gross to subtler truths and finally witnesses ultimate truth. This ultimate truth can be experienced only only by exploring reality within oneself.
The exploration of the truth within is Vipassana meditation. In the course of this exploration the meditator must investigate two fields, two aspects of reality: matter and mind. Investigation of the physical reality is called in Pāli kāyānupassanā. Investigation of the mental reality is called cittānupassanā. In fact, however, matter and mind cannot be experienced separately from each other because they are interdependent, interconnected.
Exploring one is bound to involve an exploration of the other. Neither can be fully understood without the other.
The field of matter: kāyānupassanā and vedanānupassanā
The physical reality of oneself must be invwestigated by direct experience; it will not help merely to imagine or speculate about it. How then to experience this truth, the reality of one's own body? If in the names of kāyānupassanā one sits with closed eyesand simply names or imagines the different parts of the body, such a person is far away from correct practice of Vipassanā, from the direct exploration of truth. We actually experience our bodies by feeling them - that is, by means of our bodily sensations. Therefore awareness of physical sensation is indispensable to the practice of kāyānupassanā. Sensations exists, of one type or another, at every part, every atom of the body.
Thus the investigation of the truth of body is bound to involve the exploration of bodily sensations - in Pāli, vedanānupassanā. Sensations can be experienced only within one's body, and the reality of body can be experienced only by means of sensations.
But though sensation is always based on the body, the truth of vedanā is not exclusively physical in nature; it is also one of the four mental aggregates. Sensation overlaps the two fields of mind and matter. For this reason observations of sensation, as we shall see, is a way to explore the mental-physical phenomenon in its entirety.
In the practice of kāyānupassanā, observation of sensations will enable the meditator to experience directly the changing nature of the physical structure. By examining every part of the body in turn, one realizes that all sensations arise and pass away. As one repeats this practice, eventually a stage comes in which one experiences the instantaneous dissolution of every particle of the body. In this very subtle stage the meditator observes directly that the entire material structure is dissolving every moment; this experience is called in Pāli bhaṇga-ñāṇa, the realization of the truth of dissolution.
Through observing sensations as well, one can experience that the body is composed of four basic elements: earth, or solidity; water, or fluidity; air, or gaseousness; and fire, or temperature. Particles arise with the predominance of one or more elements, giving rise to the infinite variety of sensations. They arise to pass away. Ultimately the body is merely wavelets arising and passing away, constant dissolving. The apparently solid material structure is in reality nothing but ripples, vibrations, oscillations.
This truth of anicca can be realized directly only by the experience of bodily sensations. With this realization comes the understanding that one has no control over the changes constantly occurring in the body - aniccā. Therefore any attachment to what is changing beyond one's control is bound to bring nothing but suffering - dukkha. Knowing these facts now by personal experience, the meditator develops the wisdom of equanimity. By observing sensations he has reached the ultimate truth about body, and as a result his attachment to the body is shattered. He emerges from the folly of identifying with the body and develops real detachment, real enlightenment.
In the practice of vedanānupassanā as well, the meditator gives importance to observing all that happens within the body, all sensations. Whether they are pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral one learns to observe them objectively, and by doing so one breaks the old habit of wallowing in sensory experiences. By repeatedly observing the arising and passing away of sensations, the meditator learns not to be swayed by them, to keep an inner balance in the face of any experience whatsoever.
In this way the sensations that arise within the body are the base for the practice of both kāyānupassanā and vedanānupassanā. By investigating sensations the meditator explores to the depths the reality of the physical atructure. The understanding arises, "Such is the body and such are bodily sensations, which create so many illusions and complications for us!" Previously one may have understood these phenomena intellectually, but now this understanding becomes the wisdom that develops from experience - the experience of bodily sensations.
The field of mind: cittāmupassanā and dhammānupassanā
Another aspect of the practice of Vipassanā meditation is exploration of mental reality. As body cannot be experienced without the sensations that arise within it, similarly mind cannot be experienced apart from what its contents - in Pāli, Dhamma. Hence observation of mind (cittānupassanā) and observation of mental contents (dhammānupassanā) are inseparable. When the mind contains craving the meditator realizes this fact. When it is free from craving the meditator realizes this as well. Similarly he realizes when the mind contains aversion or ignorance, and when it is free from these defilements. He realizes when the mind is agitated and scattered, or tranquil and concentrated. This is how he practises cittānupassanā.
The meditator simply observes objectively whatever happens within the mind, whatever mental phenomenon, whatever Dhamma; this is the practice of dhammānupassanā. Without becoming upset, he accepts whatever the mind contains at this moment: craving or aversion, sloth and torpor or agitation, guiltiness or sceptical doubts. And the law of nature is such that by observing them objectively, one automatically eradicates these hindrances. The meditator also accepts when such dhammas arise as awareness, penetrative investigation, effort, joy, tranquility, concentration, and equanimity. And the law of nature is such that as one observes objectively, these wholesome mental qualities are multiplied.
Positive or negative, one simply accepts all mental phenomena. All dhammas arise within the dhammas that it contains. Hence dhammānupassanā and cittānupassanā are inseparable.
Further, the meditator realizes that the mind and mental contents are inextricably linked to the body. The mind is constantly in contact with the physical structure; whatever dhammas arise within it have the base not of mind alone but also of body. This physical aspect of mental events is easily apparent when strong emotions or agitation arise, but is exists as part of every mental phenomenon. Even the slightest passing of thought manifests not in the mind alone but in the combined field of mind and matter; that is, it is accompanied by a sensation within the body.
For this reason awareness of physical sensations is essential for the observation of mind and mental contents. Without this awareness, the exploration of mental reality will be imcomplete and superficial.
All that happens within this mental and physical phenomenon manifests as bodily sensation. Every moment there is a contact of mind and matter at the subtlest level, and from this contact sensation arises. By means of sensation one can experience directly every aspect of the phenomenon of oneself. Therefore, not only kāyānupassanā and vedanānupassanā but also cittānupassanā and dhammānupassanā must be practised by observing bodily sensations.
And as the meditator does so he realizes, "Such is the mind, and such is all that it contains: impermanent, ephemeral, dissolving, changing every mement!" This is not a dogma that he accepts on faith alone, not merely the result of logical deduction, not an imagination or the fruit of contemplation. The meditator realizes the truth for himself directly by experiencing and observing bodily sensations.
Thus sensation becomes the base for the exploration of the entire world of mind and matter. Exploring in this way, the meditator comes to understand truth in all its aspects, the whole truth of oneself. This is sampajañña, the fullness of understanding; this is satipaṭṭhāna, the establishing of awareness. This is how to develop wisdom that will be unshakable, because it arises from a realization of the entire truth.
Observation of sensation leads the meditator to experience the ultimate truth of matter, mind, and mental contents: changing every moment. Then transcending the field of mind and matter, one comes to the ultimate truth which is beyond all sensory experience, beyond the phenomenal world. In this transcendent reality there is no more anicca: nothing arises, and therefore nothing passes away. It is a stage without birth or becoming: the deathless. While the meditator experiences this reality, the senses do not function and therefore sensations cease. This is the experience of nirodha, the cessation of sensations and of suffering.
In this way a Vipassana meditator practises all four satipaṭṭhānas by observing the sensations that arise within the body. He realizes directly the changing nature of body and mind, and as he continues the exploration within, at last he comes to the truth- first within the field of mind and matter, and then in the field beyond. This is how dhammānupassanā is practised completely. This is how the four satipaṭṭhānas are properly practised. This is how one's meditation, one's exploration of truth comes to frution.
Come, oh meditators! With the help of bodily sensations let us explore the entire truth of ourselves, and by doing so let us achieve the final goal of real happiness, real peace.