Reality is entirely mute.
Silent.
On its own, it's totally ineffable.
Intangible.
Nothing is conveying
From "its own side"
Anything
- any data, any information.
It's all construed
Fabricated
Set up
From the side of the mind
Through conceptuality.
Mind too
As well as these supposed mute objects
Are fabricated conceptually.
Conceptuality too is conceptually woven.
Outside conceptuality
Nothing is truly established.
Nothing is truly actualized.
However, neither are things
Outside of conceptuality
Non-existent.
"Outside of conceptuality"
However,
Too is established through language.
It's not all in the mind.
Despite the fact that
It is the mind
That is the great housebuilder.
The weaver of universes.
Of Samsara.
Of Nirvana.
The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words.
When the mind falls silent
Reality falls freely
Into an unfathomable abyss.
Into groundlessness.
Into voidness.
As voidness.
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John Tan

John Tan André,

"When the mind falls silent
Reality falls freely
Into an unfathomable abyss.
Into groundlessness.
Into voidness.
As voidness."

Is that what u see when the mind falls silent? What abt the luminous phenominality u used to speak abt?
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· Reply · 18h
André A. Pais

André A. Pais John Tan the abyss and voidness here is not a blank. It is, as you say, luminosity. Undifferentiated - and thus without a ground - radiance.
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· Reply · 18h
John Tan

John Tan André, why the mind needs to b silent then? The luminous phenominality only manifests when mind is silent?
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· Reply · 18h
André A. Pais

André A. Pais John Tan
The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words.

Words are luminosity too, yes. But their meanings have to be seen through, otherwise luminosity will seem and feel solid. Solidity, duality, substantially, suffering, etc., are all established through deludedly applied language.
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· Reply · 18h
John Tan

John Tan André, u mentioned about the 3 tests of Chandrakirti in the other post, I supposed u r referring to the 3 definitions of conventionality? Any idea how is this luminosity related to the 3 definitions?
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· Reply · 18h
John Tan

John Tan I would say regardless of whether the mind is silent, conceptual or non-conceptual, things still appear solid, dual and substantial. The wisdom that sees through essence and characteristics penetrates far deeper than non-conceptuality. Ignorance is equally deep, non-conceptuality is not sufficient to put ignorance to rest.

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· Reply · 18h
André A. Pais

André A. Pais John Tan, again:

The point of all this
Is to drop into a silence
That is beyond words.
And beyond the absence of words. ;)

I totally agree with you. Mere non-conceptuality is not enough. Newborn babies and animals are not Buddhas. We are not Buddhas in deep sleep.

By "all this" I mean thorough analysis, which results, I believe, in a silence that is not mere non-conceptuality and which can include, in fact, thoughts and concepts.
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· Reply · 17h
John Tan

John Tan André, imo ultimate analysis that conventional things are empty is the antedote for the conceptual mind to understand. The "taste" and recognition of "essence and characteristics" and emptiness must b brought to all levels, conceptual or non-conceptual, like how we recognized our childhood friends even after not seeing them for decades.

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· Reply · 17h · Edited
Geovani Geo

Geovani Geo Andre. "The abyss and voidness here is not a blank. It is, as you say, luminosity. Undifferentiated - and thus without a ground - radiance."

When you say, "without a ground", what is it that is w/o the ground?

There is a subtlety here. Of course the ultimate Silence is groundless for there is nothing upstream of it. Otoh, "the mind that is the great housebuilder, the weaver of universes, of Samsara, of Nirvana" is grounded in that Silence. So when we say that "its all conceptually attributed" this "all" does have a ground, the Ultimate Silence.
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· Reply · 13h
John Tan

John Tan There never is/was any "ground" and if anything needs to be dropped to reach a point of silence, then it is a state that has entry and exit.

Silence or movement, both r appearances. The mind oscillates between the two poles as a result of non-recognition. The nature of mind and phenomena is empty and non-arisen, they have never deviated from their nirvanic quiescence.

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· Reply · 8h
Geovani Geo

Geovani Geo John Tan, when you say, "silence or movement, both r appearances" you have attributed a significance to such silence that made it differ from nirvanic quiescencent silence that has no points of entry and exit. You are now speaking of the apparent manifested silence opposite to manifested movement.

Of course there is no ground when all there is is the ground, just as there is no silence that is not an appearance when all there is is such silence, which is the silence the OP seems to be referring too.

So, you have changed the nomenclature.
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· Reply · 4h · Edited
André A. Pais

André A. Pais Geovani Geo

>> When you say, "without a ground", what is it that is w/o the ground?

Reality is without a ground. What else could be without a ground?

>> Of course the ultimate Silence is groundless for there is nothing upstream of it.

That's the definition of ground (as source): that nothing is upstream of it. I don't agree with that. If nothing is upstream, no condition supports it. If the source is causeless, it is independent of everything else. It is useless then.

>> this "all" does have a ground, the Ultimate Silence.

I don't see any ultimate anywhere. In advaita, awareness (the Self) is ultimate. For me, that suffers from the same problem as the causeless source. Ultimate means independent. Independence destroys the functionality of interdependence. Thus it is said that independent or inherent existence is "an impossible mode / type of existence".

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· Reply · 2h · Edited
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