Also see No Mind and Anatta, Focusing on Insight 


Session Start: Sunday, 29 May, 2011

(7:17 PM) Thusness: anatta is often not correctly understood
it is common that one progress from experience of non-dual to no-mind instead of direct realization into anatta
(7:19 PM) Thusness:    many focus on the experience
and there is a lack of clarity to penetrate the differences
so u must be clear of the various phases of insights first and not mistake one for the other
at the same time, refine your experience
these few days...have deeper sleep and exercise more
balance your body energies

Conversations with Thusness 2009-2013 on I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta:

(9:12 PM) Thusness:    no mind is an experience, it is not an insight
(9:14 PM) Thusness:    ppl that have experienced no-mind knows there is such experience and aims towards achieving it again.
(9:14 PM) Thusness:    but insight is different...it is a direct experiential realization.
(9:14 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:14 PM) Thusness:    that all along it is so.

(11:19 PM) Thusness:    u may have no-mind as an experience and understood that there is such an experience as simple manifestation or just the radiant world
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    but still it remains as a stage
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    u have no idea that it is a wrong view
(11:20 PM) Thusness:    we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds'
a mistaken view shaping our entire experience
(11:22 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:23 PM) AEN:    dharma dan calls it the knot of perception rite
(11:23 PM) Thusness:    yes
(11:23 PM) AEN:    so no mind is a strage?
stage
(11:24 PM) Thusness:    no-mind is the peak of non-dual, the natural state of non-dual
(11:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:24 PM) Thusness:    where the background is completely gone
(11:25 PM) Thusness:    very often a practitioner in an advance phase of non-dual and One Mind, will naturally knows the importance of no-mind.
And that becomes the practice
they know they have to be there
(11:26 PM) Thusness:    however, to come to this natural state of non-dual where the background is deemed irrelevant, it requires insight of anatta.


(12:09 AM) Thusness:    and say yes, u realized ur mistake.  wrote too fast.
Awareness is just a label...
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    some of the texts u quoted are also misleading
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    when one spoke to others in longchen forum, some is to lead one into non-dual from "I AM" coz they can't accept anatta insight but is able to penetrate non-dual.
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    when anatta insight arises, one realizes there is no background
(12:14 AM) Thusness:    when insight of emptiness arise, then all is just sharing the same taste, luminous yet empty
(12:14 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:15 AM) Thusness:    that is, i do not see Awareness, just a luminous manifestation
there is no sense of Self/self
or Awareness
(12:16 AM) Thusness:    there is always only sound, forms, smell...sweetness....hardness...thoughts...
effortlessly manifesting
(12:16 AM) Thusness:    non-dually experienced
(12:18 AM) Thusness:    in terms of actual experience, what that is written in the forum is not enough
(12:18 AM) Thusness:    the intensity of luminosity isn't there.
(12:19 AM) Thusness:    first u go through the "I AM" for a period first
later u will understand what i mean


(12:12 AM) Thusness:    not by way of non-identification.
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    by realization -- the arising insight there the mirror does not exist
(12:15 AM) Thusness:    if at the back of one's mind, there is this belief of a self, then will experience of no-mind be intermittent or permanent?
(12:16 AM) AEN:    intermittent
(12:17 AM) Thusness:    so how is one without the realization have a permanent experience of no-mind?  There is no clarity, no doubtlessness of no-self, is it possible that there is a permanent and effortless experience of all sensate experiences without self?


Thusness: ...To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing, always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)




15/4/13 12:23:19 AM: John Tan: (One Mind) Means consciousness is of true existing like a container
15/4/13 12:23:54 AM: John Tan: Consciousness is not in the body but the body is in consciousness
15/4/13 12:24:25 AM: John Tan: Sound arises in consciousness
15/4/13 12:24:56 AM: John Tan: Therefore consciousness doesn't change
15/4/13 12:25:58 AM: John Tan: The other (No Mind) is as if consciousness is the substance of matter
15/4/13 12:27:36 AM: John Tan: When we say sound-consciousness, there is no such thing as sound and sound-consciousness
15/4/13 12:27:59 AM: John Tan: That sound is the sound-consciousness
15/4/13 12:28:24 AM: John Tan: There is no such thing as sound
15/4/13 12:28:36 AM: John Tan: Or sound-conscious
15/4/13 12:29:04 AM: John Tan: When we say I hear sound



15/4/13 12:34:19 AM: John Tan: How do u differentiate one mind from no mind to anatta?
15/4/13 12:34:43 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In no mind there is no subsuming involved there is only manifestation
15/4/13 12:34:47 AM: Soh Wei Yu: But as an experience
15/4/13 12:35:07 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In anatta there is insight into no agent in seeing just seen pure manifestation
15/4/13 12:35:20 AM: Soh Wei Yu: One mind is subsuming but yet nondual is experienced
15/4/13 12:37:11 AM: John Tan: One mind is u r always looking at an ultimate mind behind, u r not looking at manifestation
15/4/13 12:37:26 AM: Soh Wei Yu: But it's not I Am right
15/4/13 12:37:36 AM: John Tan: Yes it is not
15/4/13 12:38:18 AM: Soh Wei Yu: It's like integrating foreground as being an aspect of background
15/4/13 12:38:28 AM: John Tan: Everything is consumed into the source (for One Mind)
15/4/13 12:39:24 AM: John Tan: I m is just the pure background behind but external objects r not subsumed into it...like separate
15/4/13 12:39:48 AM: John Tan: I m I ....dualistic

15/4/13 12:41:53 AM: John Tan: In this case (One Mind) all is being consumed/subsumed into the source
15/4/13 12:42:45 AM: John Tan: Sound is consciousness is not one mind but no mind

15/4/13 12:44:02 AM: John Tan: When the hearer is gone and there is only sound, that sound is precisely consciousness
15/4/13 12:45:15 AM: John Tan: That is the experience of no-mind

15/4/13 12:50:31 AM: John Tan: No mind is like the mirror becomes transparent and there is just that
15/4/13 12:51:22 AM: John Tan: But the view is the reflection and the mirror is not the same
15/4/13 12:52:09 AM: John Tan: Like sky is not the flowing cloud


John TanFriday, November 22, 2013 at 8:25am UTC+08

But this is also good so that the point that a practitioner may hv clear experience of no mind but a view of one mind..
John TanFriday, November 22, 2013 at 8:26am UTC+08

Thus view, experience and realization


15/4/13 12:53:28 AM: John Tan: Anatta is a realization that there isn't a consciousness besides sound, scenery...etc
15/4/13 12:56:15 AM: John Tan: U c through reification of that agent and get in touch with the base manifestation  where the label rely upon
15/4/13 12:57:02 AM: John Tan: So sound is the actual consciousness is referring to
15/4/13 12:57:36 AM: John Tan: There is no consciousness other than that

15/4/13 1:01:13 AM: John Tan: When they see through reification, then phenomena has a different meaning
15/4/13 1:02:04 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as awareness is not one mind
15/4/13 1:02:52 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as the same unchanging mind is the problem
15/4/13 1:04:09 AM: John Tan: When u c through reification, u realized "awareness" is just a label point to these manifestations
15/4/13 1:04:32 AM: John Tan: So there is nothing wrong saying that
15/4/13 1:05:24 AM: John Tan: Only when we treat awareness to b of true existence then we r deluded because there isn't any
15/4/13 1:11:14 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
15/4/13 1:11:36 AM: John Tan: In hearing, there is only sound
15/4/13 1:11:57 AM: John Tan: Hearing implies the presence of sound

14/5/13 9:39:15 PM: John Tan: One mind is different
14/5/13 9:40:04 PM: John Tan: One mind as I told u is the witness is gone but subsume into an overarching Awareness
14/5/13 9:40:31 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Is there a distinct phase of one mind in your seven stages?
14/5/13 9:40:48 PM: John Tan: Phase 4
14/5/13 9:41:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But u said phase 4 u already realised anatta and experience no mind?
14/5/13 9:41:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So does that mean the insight already arise by tendency to sink back to one mind is still there
14/5/13 9:42:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But
14/5/13 9:42:17 PM: John Tan: All such gray area is put onto phase 4 insight when view isn't completely clear
14/5/13 9:42:44 PM: John Tan: There is no way to describe the grey scale
14/5/13 9:43:24 PM: John Tan: Even in anatta there r so many different degree of refinements
14/5/13 9:43:34 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see
14/5/13 9:43:59 PM: John Tan: But it is not practical to talk abt all
14/5/13 9:44:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. U mean not describable
14/5/13 9:45:32 PM: John Tan: No...not that it is not describable but not practical to describe
14/5/13 9:46:48 PM: John Tan: Like AF is part of the deviation looking into purely physical flesh and blood of pure experience ... Some went into details some does not
14/5/13 9:47:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What do u mean by went into details
14/5/13 9:48:54 PM: John Tan: It is like I M, there r all those experiences u undergone but I do not say they r diff phases


14/4/13 7:35:01 PM: John Tan: When u say "weather", does weather exist?
14/4/13 7:35:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No
14/4/13 7:35:42 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's a convention imputed on a seamless activity
14/4/13 7:35:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Existence and non existence don't apply
14/4/13 7:36:02 PM: John Tan: What is the basis where this label rely on
14/4/13 7:36:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Rain clouds wind etc
14/4/13 7:36:25 PM: John Tan: Don't talk prasanga
14/4/13 7:36:36 PM: John Tan: Directly see
14/4/13 7:38:11 PM: John Tan: Rain too is a label
14/4/13 7:39:10 PM: John Tan: But in direct experience, there is no issue but when probed, u realized how one is confused abt the reification from language
14/4/13 7:39:52 PM: John Tan: And from there life/death/creation/cessation arise
14/4/13 7:40:06 PM: John Tan: And whole lots of attachment
14/4/13 7:40:25 PM: John Tan: But it does not mean there is no basis...get it?
14/4/13 7:40:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: The basis is just the experience right
14/4/13 7:41:15 PM: John Tan: Yes which is plain and simple
14/4/13 7:41:50 PM: John Tan: When we say the weather is windy
14/4/13 7:42:04 PM: John Tan: Feel the wind, the blowing...
14/4/13 7:43:04 PM: John Tan: But when we look at language and mistaken verb for nouns there r big issues
14/4/13 7:43:22 PM: John Tan: So before we talk abt this and that
14/4/13 7:43:40 PM: John Tan: Understand what consciousness is and awareness is
14/4/13 7:43:45 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:44:40 PM: John Tan: When we say weather, feel the sunshine, the wind, the rain
14/4/13 7:44:58 PM: John Tan: U do not search for weather
14/4/13 7:45:04 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:45:57 PM: John Tan: Similarly, when we say awareness, look into scenery, sound, tactile sensations, scents and thoughts

......................

"So what is one mind, what is no mind and what is original mind in this context? One mind is post non-dual but subsuming leaving trace. No mind is just one mind except that there is evenness till the last trace is gone. Like what explains in the text. Uji...all is time therefore no time. When you go from dual to non dual or one mind to no mind, those are stages and experiences... If u got the condition to get pointed out that originally there never was a mind, there are no stages to climb... that is original mind. This requires insights and wisdom." - John Tan, 2020

(Note by Soh: the original mind spoken here does not mean some unborn metaphysical primordial mind such as the I AM, but the originally, already-is nature of mind -- empty of itself -- "
originally there never was a mind", empty of all self/Self)

......................

“Someone wrote on https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/permalink/3999299513444782/: Hey folks, thanks for allowing me to join this group. I'm currently ploughing through the epic tome that is 'Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind'. Right now I have consistent access to One Mind as an experience and periodic, but not consistent, access to No Mind as an experience. Judging by what I've read so far, the missing piece is deeper insight into anatta to make the flip from 'temporary experience' to 'baseline ground reality'. Over the last few months I've been practising a certain kind of letting go to cause the No Mind experience to arise more consistently, but I guess the AtR view is that this approach is somewhat mistaken and my time would be better spent contemplating anatta?

 

Soh replied:

 

Welcome to atr group.

Not exactly mistaken because no mind is important, but should compliment with the two stanzas and bahiya sutta style of contemplation and make sure not to contemplate in a way of making it a state but in a way that addresses the view aspect.

For example in this article Robert explained his earlier mistake was taking bahiya sutta as simply a way to induce a state of no mind rather than contemplating to realize the view aspect:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../Robert%20Dominik

Also these articles should help:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../the-wind-is...

And this, along with comments by PasserBy (thusness) in the comments section:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../ajahn-amaro-on...

 

1/14/2012 10:30 PM: John: Anatta is about right view... Means you must have the experience of no-mind and realized no self with right view. Or you have no mind experience and with the help of right view, realization dawns.”

......................


Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Calls my attention the fact that you call the realization of I Am the same as One Mind.

I was a kid, didn't read or write yet, when suddenly I realized that "I Am the only one looking out from eyes, all others are seen from outside". But this insight was not accompanied by any notions of One MInd. I still felt as an entity looking out from the body. Nonetheless, this I Am (looking) had something genuine.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo ... for it was totally absent of concepts, thoughts.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu I AM and One Mind is different. This link should clarify our terminologies: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../differentiatin...

Rupert Spira in recent years had an even more mature insight (he said he realized it spontaneously while answering someone in a talk) into seeing how usually we think objects are seen and awareness is unseen but it's the complete opposite -- objects are never seen, only Awareness is ever seen, heard, touched, etc. This is mature All-Is-Mind insight venturing into No Mind. However I don't think anatta insight has arisen.
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awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo John Tan: "No mind is like the mirror becomes transparent and there is just that But the view is the reflection and the mirror is not the same. Like sky is not the flowing cloud"

The reflection and the mirror is not the same?
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Means in no-mind, there is the direct experience that that mirror (consciousness) is the substance of reflection (sights/sounds/thoughts/etc), the experience is one of complete non-duality as manifestation, yet the 'view' is still not anatta, still subtly dualistic -- reflection is still seen as not the same as the unchanging mirror. So when analysing and expressing that experience he will use that dualistic framework to express it. Therefore the peak experience is not congruent with the view (the 'conceptual' framework) one holds, there is a desync between view and experience.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Ah... is he saying that the view is a smaller realization than No MInd? ic
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu What I mean is that in between one mind and no mind the experience and realization gets refined but not yet the realization of anatta, that in seeing just the seen, 'seeing' (consciousness) is just the seen -- the colors, the manifestation, without a seer, no agent. Same goes for other senses.. 'awareness' is a label, empty of its own intrinsic existence that could exist on its own side.

When anatta is realized, then the experience of no-mind (as just manifestation) becomes in line or in sync with the anatta view. Then one can further expand that emptiness insight to mind/body, and nature of phenomena.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu View is the paradigm or framework in how consciousness is viewed in relation to phenomena, and the nature of consciousness and phenomena. One can have a completely nondual experience and yet the 'view' one holds is dualistic, therefore view and experience becomes incongruent/desynchronized, and the peak experience will not be stable and effortless.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Also as Thusness pointed out, the view aspect does not just pertain to subject/object duality but more importantly 'inherent existence'. One can overcome subject/object division but cling to 'inherent existence' of various kinds, so still subtly dualistic. Subject/object can be called a subset of the view of 'inherent existence' (pertaining to self, and to phenomena).
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo I c. I just misread thusness statement. I didn't read it as "view" being a stage. I thought he was describing One Mind. That is why I found it strange.
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo view is not a stage, it's more like a structure, paradigm or even technique. It's the ideological or philosophical framework that supports the practice.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Yes, view is not the stage but the paradigm.

The direct realization of the right view of anatta, dependent origination and emptiness is Thusness Stage 5 and 6, you can say the 'realization' is a new phase or stage. Ultimately the emptiness view is a viewless view, it is not concept to be clung on to just like anatta is not a concept to be held but the negation, penetration or seeing through of a wrongly held framework that allows us to have the direct taste of empty radiance free from any mental proliferations. However one should contemplate dependent origination and emptiness and refine the insight into one's empty radiance. It is an important raft.

As Thusness wrote elsewhere,

"In my previous message, I mentioned abt anatta and spontaneous perfection as returning to one's natural and authentic condition because I hope u can see it from another angle.

To some, in the seen, just the seen sounded like a perfect state of concentration through long period of training and practice. To me however, the taste of anatta is the birthright, primordial and natural condition of one's clarity.

Seeing is just seen, no seer;
Hearing is just sound, no hearer. It is the gateway to realize the mundane is precisely where one's natural radiance is fully expressed. Nothing hidden, nothing beyond and fully manifested.

What does freedom from reification entail? It is to get rid of all "beyonds", all "backgrounds", all constructs so that we can recognize "face to face" of what seen, heard, touch ...etc as one's empty clarity, not to bring us to an unreachable la la Land.

So wherever and whenever I see dependent arising and emptiness, I see one's empty clarity.
Some can through seeing emptiness realized directly one's empty clarity, just like case of the insight of anatta but some can't.

If this isn't obvious, then separate pointing is necessary.

Lastly the true practice is in ceaselessly meeting conditions and situations, without that, there is no genuine actualization."
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Each stage has its own view (Paradigm/structure). Dualistic and inherent - I Am. Nondual but inherent - one mind~no mind. Nondual and non inherent - Anatta, dependent origination and emptiness (stage 5-6)
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Its the present map. The map changes, though. At least it may. It is where the eagle points his beak - as D. Juan would say.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Thusness: we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds' a mistaken view shaping our entire experience.

This is something so relevant. We are limited by our view!
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Wanna buy? I have a few shirts left.

WE ARE LIMITED BY OUR VIEWS
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo that's why right view is the 1st factor in the noble 8fold path; and why it is said that the 5 paramitas are blind in the absence of the 6th (wisdom). We can't experience freedom with a constricted (philosophical and existential) view.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Right. I just got the full meaning of the line:

"view, experience and realization"

This "route" is repeated in each stage.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo but it is dynamic. The view evolves so, experience and realization also evolve according to the present view. Something like that...
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo yes, like Soh said above:

> Each stage has its own view (Paradigm/structure). Dualistic and inherent - I Am. Nondual but inherent - one mind~no mind. Nondual and non inherent - Anatta, dependent origination and emptiness (stage 5-6)
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....

In early 2010, before I realised anatta:

(11:12 PM) Thusness: u r using stage 4 understanding to explain 6
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic
(11:13 PM) Thusness: i am not interested in views
only the insight that allows u to understand the right view
(11:14 PM) Thusness: that is in phase 4, 'non-dual' is the insight
in phase 5, that observer is gone
(11:15 PM) Thusness: there is not only no 'in' here or out 'there' not because it is non-dual, but because there is no such observer at all.
anatta
(11:15 PM) Thusness: that is the 'insight' that must arise
(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) Thusness: just like what dharma dan said

(11:23 PM) Thusness: u do not deny subjective or object reality
(11:24 PM) Thusness: they are only provisional and conventional
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:25 PM) Thusness: but when the dualistic and inherent hears the term 'non-dual', they either visualize the 2 becoming one or 'you have become me'...
(11:25 PM) Thusness: because this is how a mind that is trapped would think despite the experience
(11:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:27 PM) Thusness: for what that is beyond the four extremes cannot be expressed adequately using language
so what that is important is the insights
(11:27 PM) Thusness: and see how one expresses these insights
(11:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:28 PM) Thusness: like joan tollifson
it is the direct experience
there is no view about it
(11:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness: means a practitioner will only experience hardness, softness, intentions, scenery, sound
no self
(11:30 PM) Thusness: action
directly
(11:31 PM) Thusness: but conventionally, u r still u, i am still me
(11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no such thing as u r me
get it?
(11:32 PM) Thusness: or there is an awareness that is sound
or all is just this awareness
there is no such concept
(11:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:33 PM) Thusness: there is sound, sight, thoughts
(11:33 PM) Thusness: and what u call awareness are just that
(11:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) AEN: ya i talked about it in http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=13153&st=120#
(11:35 PM) Thusness: yeah but ur mind is thinking some awareness
or all are just this awareness
(11:35 PM) AEN: oic
(11:36 PM) Thusness: this is a dualistic way of understanding
though experience is non-dual
that is phase 4
(11:36 PM) AEN: sorry i mean post #126
oic
(11:36 PM) Thusness: that is treating winter as spring and spring as autumn
(11:36 PM) Thusness: that is treating fire as becoming ashes
(11:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness: get it?
although u said that sound is awareness, u r still treating it as that.
(11:37 PM) Thusness: as if winter becomes spring
or winter is spring
(11:38 PM) Thusness: get it?
(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:38 PM) Thusness: it is different
for example dharma dan said there is just sensations, thoughts...the aggregates. whether super awareness or awareness. it is different from saying sensation is awareness, thoughts is awareness as if awareness has become thoughts



.....


Reality, I AM, nondual, anatta, karmic constructs and mental proliferation: a conversation with John Tan

[4:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Tell me abt hire you understand in the past before engaging deeply into Buddhism.
[4:52 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What u understand
[4:53 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When u say the tree exist, it is out there....how u feel and experience
[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Feel like a separate observer interacting with an observer independent object out there.. everything about the tree including its shapes and colours just exist out there and are intrinsic attributes of the object
[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Also experience things from a distance as a self before anatta
[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Yes
[4:55 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Even the sound we hear.
[4:56 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We don't actually examine and investigate deeply.
[4:57 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What happened in I M or I-I or just I and post that?
[4:59 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Theres a doubtless direct immediate taste of luminosity.. without concept or intermediary. Just a pure sense of presence
[5:00 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But for I AM just the thought realm and not as sound etc
[5:00 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: I m not talking about that
[5:01 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: I m talking about trees, separation, objects...as u said earlier...does it change anything
[5:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: At the I AM level up to one mind, all phenomena are like passing clouds floating by from within a vast ground of being.. especially at I AM it still feels dualistic. At one mind everything is indistinguishable but there is not the clarity of view and no mind not fully stabilized. Anatta realization dissolves the background observer
[5:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: At I AM and one mind i feel like the source out of which everything emerges
[5:05 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: At I M, do u feel things r still external?
[5:05 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes and the focus is on the internal sense of background beingness
[5:06 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Just recall ur experience even after I M. Don't mixed up phases of insights and gross through.
[5:07 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Do u or do u not feel things r still external?
[5:09 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: There is a sense that they are contained or emerging from and subsiding within a formless container of pure being.. so things are in a sense within me but not me, still dualistic
I wrote about how i am not running past objects, the scenery is passing within me
[5:10 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So from before I M and post I M, what has changed?
[5:11 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before I AM, i am a little person or ego residing inside the body relating to an object out there
After I AM, the body and mind and universe merely emerges and subsides from the source of pure beingness
[5:12 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Ok. Before that, what is reality to u?
[5:12 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And after that what do u mean by reality?
[5:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before that the identity self as well as objective world is reality
[5:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: After I AM, only the I AM is ultimately real. Everything else is just like projection of a movie on a movie screen
[5:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Before that reality is physical reality correct?
[5:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: After that I M is the Reality.
[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah.. physical reality plus the sense of being a person relating to physical reality.. the person is also seen to be part of that
[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:15 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now from before I M to I M, what has changed?
[5:17 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before I AM ignorance and karmic propensity projects ego and world as real... After I AM the intense luminosity is so real and overwhelming yet its nature is not understood, the mind with its ignorant mechanism of understanding reality then swaps the sense of identity and imputation onto the I AM. Then it turns into ultimate reality and background
[5:19 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Don't tell me on hindsight, tell me just before and after I M experience....don't tell me anything other thing...
[5:19 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U r not focusing. from things being very physical to I M spiritual, what has happened?
[5:20 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U r turning ur attention from external to internal right?
[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So what r the difference from before I M and After?
[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes focus on internal, just pure beingness
[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Until what happened?
[5:21 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Before i am focus is as a observer focusing outwards but dualistic
[5:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Until the four aspects of i am and then nondual insights.. the aspect of impersonality is not focused solely on internal but leads to a sense of universality, diffused and being lived. But its still dual here and attention is still mainly focused on internal and background.
What really changed is after nondual and especially anatta
[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: No
[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What is the most important experience in I M?
[5:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What must happen in I M?
[5:25 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: There is not even an M, just I... complete stillness, just I correct?
[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Realization, certainty of being.. yes just stillness and doubtless sense of I/Existence
[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And what is the complete stillness just I?
[5:26 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Just I, just presence itself
[5:28 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This stillness absorbs excludes and includes everything into just I. What is that experience called?
[5:29 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I am everything?
[5:29 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: That experience is non-dual.
[5:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And in that experience actually, there is no external nor internal, there is also no observer or observed.
[5:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Just complete stillness as I.
[5:31 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah even I AM is nondual
[5:31 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: That is ur first phase of a non dual experience.
[5:32 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We say this is the pure thought experience in stillness
[5:32 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Thought realm
[5:33 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But at that moment we don't know that...we treated that as ultimate reality.
[5:33 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I find it weird at that time when u said it is non conceptual thought
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Yeah
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Lol
[5:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now I dun want to mix up
[5:35 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But u really do not know what that encounter is...seems mystical
[5:35 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: We thought it is damn special right🤣🤣🤣
[5:37 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah lol
[5:38 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now what about non-dual? What leads to non-dual for u before anatta?
[5:41 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The first breakthrough was when i was dancing on the nightclub.. at that time i was a little drunk but because i was dancing and listening to the music, the attention was shifted from background to foreground.. then the bahiya sutta came up in my mind and that triggered a vivid nondual experience and i understood that the taste of existence is not just background i amness but in everything.. then that nondual experience lasted two days before background witnessing returned. When i went to army in september i was contemplating the border and edge between manifestation and awareness a lot and i became increasingly certain that awareness is nondual and the nondual experience is stabilizing but it is not anatta yet. I realised anatta in october
[5:43 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now from I M, is the not just a non-dual experience, u have en-counter clarity directly and without intermediary.
[5:44 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Therefore 明心 (apprehending Mind) or 验证本心 (experientially verifying the original Mind)
[5:45 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This is the most key insight but it requires a non-dual mode to 验证 (experiential verification)。
[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: So it is what I call 顿悟 (sudden awakening) also.
[5:46 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now Reality in esoteric practice is referring to this reality.
[5:48 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When ur focus turned internal, u find that without this I, nothing is real, this is more real than real. Correct?
[5:50 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah
[5:50 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Only I AM is more real than real
[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When u turned from I M to non-dual, u r dissolving the line or layer that divides, when u dissolve that line, u have sort of non-dual experience.
[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: But that dissolving is not effortless, y?
[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yes.. i saw in august that the taste of reality and existence is also found in everything.. although the dualistic view and inherent view still hasnt gone through refinement
[5:51 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[5:52 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What exactly is preventing u from have effortless non-dual, what exactly is causing the oscillation to and fro from background to foreground?
[5:53 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Don't talk about "inherent view"
[5:54 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The very strong tendency to view that I AM as eternal witness and ultimate reality is still there.. so without a breakthrough in view i returned to witnessing after 2 days until insights into nondual deepen
[5:56 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U don't have to know about "emptiness" or "inherent view", u can just contemplate on certain koans and stanzas. What must happen for effortlessness to happen?
[5:57 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Insight into anatta leads to effortlessness
[5:58 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What is anatta?
[5:58 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What exactly is seen through?
[5:59 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: In seeing just the seen.. i saw through the sense of a seer besides seeing or seeing besides seen.. the subject-action-object and background/foreground paradigm is seen through and therefore i realise and actualized awareness as pure manifestation
[6:01 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now there r two important points, seeing through self/Self and seeing through subject-action-object, any difference?
[6:02 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Subject/object if seen as undivided can still end up in one mind, seeing through self/Self dissolves the construct via realisation into mere luminous manifestation and aggregates
[6:03 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Its a bit like chariot except i wasnt thinking of that analogy at that time
[6:04 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But anatta properly seen dissolves subject-action-object
[6:04 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: (referring to Chariot) This is much more deeper
[6:05 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: This seeing through, what did u understand?
[6:07 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The emptiness of the construct of self/Self and awareness, as well as subject-action-object structure.. seeing through the emptiness of awareness as background and realising and actualising luminous taste as manifestation.. also at that time no agency and two stanza becoming clearer. One week later the same insight of anatta applied on mind body led to mind body drop
[6:09 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: 1. U see through constructs
2. U understand the relationship between constructs and experience
3. What else???
[6:09 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: What did i tell u?
[6:13 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm not sure.. after that no mind and luminous taste becomes effortless mode rather than efforting
[6:14 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: The power of constructs, how it creates an experience so real and so convincing, how it blinds. U cannot just look at just one side of the coin.
[6:15 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah i had a better understanding of the power of constructs a year after that
[6:17 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: If u do not understand the power of constructs, u r only knowing half. It is the process of forming and dissolving these constructs in relation to consciousness creating all the one mind, no mind, anatta, non-dual experiences.
[6:18 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And u r always overcoming those, so know the power and know the way of overcoming and what do u call that?
[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Prajna?
[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Wisdom
[6:20 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: No
[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Karmic propensities?
[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Bond
[6:23 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ignorance
[6:24 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: U can say all that...but what do u call these constructs in Buddhism?
[6:25 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Mental proliferation?
[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: 造作
[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Means what?
[6:26 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Mental proliferation means what?
[6:27 PM, 4/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It is the continuous activity of projecting those constructs into reality
[6:28 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: It is the continuous activity of projecting those constructs into experience...
[6:29 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: Now there r 2 one is releasing these constructs, the other is the post releasing...so what r the difference?
[6:30 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: The actual experience post releasing
[6:31 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: And the question is emptiness and DO just seeing through these constructs? Or is there something more?

[6:34 PM, 4/24/2020] John Tan: When u see through the background, u don't just experience vivid effortless non-dual experiences. But u always realize all along there isn't any self behind, just this activity of on going proliferation ... And the freedom of it. When it is free...what is experience like?


...

[8:45 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: btw which year did you realise anatta? just curious lol.. 1997?
[8:51 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Lol yeah around there
[8:52 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic..
[8:52 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Anatta is not just non-dual
[8:54 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Unlike u, I have been stuck in one mind for quite some time. It is not easy to get rid of that trace.
[8:55 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: you were in one mind before 1997?
[8:55 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Without guidance, can take many years. Even then one may just b a state of no mind rather than anatta.
[8:57 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Yeah 1997 and before no mind also but clarity of view wasn't there. So it remains a form of experience rather than insight and realization.
[8:57 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: A state I mean.
[8:57 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Y?
[8:59 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: hmm... there is some insight into nondivision but not the emptiness of awareness, not anatta
[8:59 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: so you realised through contemplating the first stanza of anatta in 1997 but that was still followed by one mind and no mind for a few years?
[9:01 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: No...post anatta, the karmic tendency wasn't that strong anymore...maybe 1 year or so for one mind and no mind ...
[9:01 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Before that overcoming of background is tough.
[9:02 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: I M was younger than u...lol. IM is at the age ard 15.🤣
[9:02 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: So u can see how long can one get stuck
5 Responses
  1. Sam Says:

    I think I am clear on difference between no mind and one mind. But I am still not clear about how no mind is different from Anatta. Does not Anatta already imply no mind and vice versa?


  2. Soh Says:

    In no-mind, the sense of a background Self, awareness, seer, hearer, is gone and instead the awareness is just the sound, the sight, the everything.

    But it can just be a peak experience. Means, the sense of Self/background can be dissolved momentarily and returns later on. Having an experience where sense of self and background dissolves temporarily is not the same as having an insight that there never actually was an Agent/Background.

    Anatta is a dharma seal, a 'truth' of what is always already the case. No-mind becomes effortless after anatta realization.

    For Anatta realization, it is suddenly realized that in seeing there's always only the seen with no seer, in hearing there's always only the heard with no hearer, and same for all other senses. Until it is suddenly realized that the whole structure of Seer-Seeing-Seen doesn't apply and there is no seeing besides colors -- no seer, no hearing besides sound -- no hearer, no awareness besides manifestation. This is not just realising the lack of borders or duality but realizing the Absence of an inherently existing Self/Agent/Awareness behind manifestation. It's seeing that the 'Background' never existed. This is the realization of anatta.


  3. Anonymous Says:

    When not enough merit/good karma , and fruits of realization wont get ripe in dis present life, should one focus on volunteering, charity and selfless service?


  4. Soh Says:

    That is good, but perhaps it will be more helpful to focus on one's self inquiry and meditation. You can do both.

    Also, there are differing degrees of merits from different actions.

    Read this teaching by Buddha if you are interested in merits - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.020.than.html

    AN 9.20: Velāma Sutta: About Velāma

    "This sutta lists in order of least to greatest fruitfulness:

    An unimaginably large alms offering < feeding a stream enterer < feeding a once-returner < feeding a nonreturner < feeding an arahant < feeding a paccekabuddha < feeding a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha < feed the Saṅgha headed by a Buddha < build a monastery for the Saṅgha < undertaking the 5 precepts and go for Refuge in the Triple Gem < develop a mind of loving-kindness even for the time it takes to pull a cow's udder < develop the perception of impermanence just for the time it takes to snap one's fingers

    For the last two, loving-kindness and impermanence, developing them is more fruitful than all those preceding it combined. It goes to show how fruitful it is for us householders to develop the perception of impermanence, even if for just the time it takes to snap one's fingers!"


  5. Soh Says:

    When you practice "volunteering, charity and selfless service", which is very good, you should practice opening your heart and metta rather than be attached to actions and results.