Someone thinks that the First Bhumi corresponds with the I AM realization. I disagreed and explained why:
 
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/12/redditor-im-free-im-no-longer-slave-to.html


Anonymous Tao said...
First bhūmi, the Very Joyous. :)

I hope he doesnt stop there.
Dec 4, 2018, 10:51:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
No, it is not the first bhumi. It is the I AM realization -- Thusness Stage 1.

First bhumi is at least Thusness Stage 5 -- realization of anatman.

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
Dec 4, 2018, 11:00:00 PM
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Anonymous Tao said...
And your arguments are?
Dec 4, 2018, 11:04:00 PM
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Anonymous Tao said...
My arguments:

- This realization is always the first (in the cases I know, as in me and you) and it's not easily reversible, so it fits as a first ground (bhumi). That's their meaning...
- It's very, very joyous, as we all know, as it's the first glimpse of real espirituality. Real change in the mind. Real "seeing" of truth, even it's not final.
- As the first bhumi is in the path of seeing (and the rest in the path of meditation), it also fits.
- Tradition doesnt say that you realize Anatta in the 1st Bhumi, saya that there's the first glimpse of emptiness (sunyata). And certainly for the first time the meditator faces something without característics, some kind of "atman" or emptiness-I

Hug!
Dec 4, 2018, 11:20:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
What are you asking -- whether the author is at I AM or whether first bhumi requires Anatta (Stage 5) realization?

I'll answer both anyway --

It is very clear from the text that he is describing I AM realization, being exactly how I would describe it as well, as I have been through the Thusness 7 Stages myself. Even if you have not gone through those 7 stages, if you just compare the description of Thusness Stage 1 (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html ) with the redditor's description, you will find that it is similar.

Examples from his writings -- "I found the true me. The true I."

"Get aware of this worrying voice and manage not to identify with it anymore and every time you're aware of it you manage to make the gap bigger between you (the awareness) and the ego."

His experience is very similar to Eckhart Tolle's description of the I AM awakening. Also as Longchen/Simpo wrote many years ago,

https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/09/a-compilation-of-simpos-writings.html

"I think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.

To me, 'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect. The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage, there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.

However, at Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required."


Furthermore, I just wrote today as a comment to the redditor's post:

"Yes. The post indicates I AM realization and shouldn’t be mistaken as finality though every realization does appear final in some ways. I AM realization also comes with doubtless certainty, this is why he speaks with such confidence.

This is also why he resonated with The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, which is also speaking from the I AM realization. He will also like Ramana Maharshi, if he finds his book in future. He will not understand or resonate with Daniel Ingram or Actual Freedom at this stage as Daniel’s insight is more on anatta."
Dec 4, 2018, 11:22:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...


Now -- as to why I said first bhumi requires the realization of anatta as in Thusness Stage 5, well, this is standard sutric criteria for the attainment of First Bhumi. You can find this information everywhere. It can also be argued that first bhumi is in fact Thusness Stage 5 and 6 (based on the descriptions in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-mahayana-model-of-awakening_2.html ) combined, in any case, all agree there must be at least the realization of Anatman (stage 5).

I like Mipham Rinpoche's description of the first bhumi (first ground) too -

"...The corpus of the doctrines of Maitreya and the scriptures of the great chariot, Asaṅga, both teach with a single intent that a person on the ground of motivated conduct184 first understands all phenomena to be merely mind, and then experiences that the mind has nothing to perceive. Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining,185 one realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the attainment of the first ground.

Duckworth, Douglas. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 151). Shambhala. Kindle Edition."
Dec 4, 2018, 11:22:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
I just saw your arguments and they contain some misunderstandings.

"- This realization is always the first (in the cases I know, as in me and you) and it's not easily reversible, so it fits as a first ground (bhumi). That's their meaning..."

Not really. Many people (most people I know) go through the I AM and non dual first before anatta and emptiness, but not all. Daniel M. Ingram realized anatta but did not go through the I AM realization first. After his realization of anatta, he did stumble across a "post-8th-jhana/pure land jhana" state which he describes as the "all-pervading Watcher" or Presence, and that is similar to I AM. But he categorized it as a jhanic state and he only accessed it after anatta. It is not so important to him.

There are also other cases who realize anatta and emptiness without going through the I AM phase. Take for example, this Mahamudra practitioner -

2008 Conversation with Thusness:

(4:15 PM) AEN: tsultrim serri:
(4:15 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
(4:15 PM) AEN:
(Mind has often been likened to a mirror, but the analogy goes only so far, because mirrors exist and mind doesn't, well let's say that one can touch mirrors. What existence means, particularly at these levels, would be a fruitful topic, but one that i will not cover. Also , mind doesn't really reflect phenomena, it is the phenomena themselves. This is covered further down in these 4 prajnas, but for clarity i thought i should mention that.
(4:15 PM) AEN:
"Thusness' or "suchness" is what one feels with the experience of emptiness. It is a solid sense of being (yes, emptiness has a solid or one could say rich feeling). The luminescence of mind can be compared the the surface of a mirror. If the mirror is dirty it doesn't have a bright surface, and if mind is filled with obscuration its awareness is dimmed. With the experience of emptiness, phenomena become more vivid. It is said in the post that this confirms one's entrance into Zen. In the vajrayana, this vividness of mind is called "osel" in Tibetan, and it is a sign that one has entered the vajrayana. In my experience, this is quite far along the path. To get to this point, one would have to experience egolessness of self, egolessness of other, nondualty, emptiness, and only then luminosity.)
(4:16 PM) Thusness: very good.
(4:16 PM) AEN: from another thread: "Exist is a tricky word in Buddhism. Mind does not exist in the sense of being a thing, but it does exist as well, otherwise how would we be able to see, hear etc.
Having said that, for an individual, there is nothing "outside of awareness." Everything that happens to us happens in our awareness(it's not ours, but so what). Furthermore, we are literally everything that happens in our awareness. There is no self; we are simply the world. if we see a chair in our kitchen, that is what we are at that moment since there is no separation between phenomena and mind. Phenomena are mind and mind is phenomena. smile.gif
Tsultrim"
(4:17 PM) Thusness: where u get this?
(4:17 PM) AEN: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=7692fa535ee30b60543606546d085f85&search_in=posts&result_type=posts
(4:17 PM) AEN: an e-sangha poster
(4:20 PM) AEN: u can go read Kensho in context of the first prajna
(4:20 PM) AEN: he explains the four prajnas in his own words
(4:20 PM) AEN: i think the first poster also have some experience but he mistook buddha-nature as a mirror reflecting, then tsultrim went to comment on the four prajnas himself
(4:21 PM) AEN: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=78548&hl=
(4:21 PM) AEN: four jnanas i mean
Dec 4, 2018, 11:36:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
(continued)


(4:22 PM) Thusness: this tsultrim's insight is stage 6.
(4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:23 PM) Thusness: truly good.
(4:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:23 PM) Thusness: not many can truly feel the differences.
(4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:24 PM) Thusness: it is only until a certain phase of experience then that clarity comes.
(4:24 PM) Thusness: and often in tremendous in the stability of thoughtlessness... thought almost seldom arise and one becomes the full vividness of arising phenomena.
(4:25 PM) Thusness: is he a dzogchen practitioner?
(4:25 PM) AEN: oic
(4:25 PM) AEN: i think mahamudra
(4:25 PM) AEN: he talks about the four yoga
(4:25 PM) Thusness: ic
(4:25 PM) AEN: "(Yes, this agrees, in my opinion, with "nonmeditation" in the 4 yogas of mahamudra, the last and most fruitional yoga of mahamudra."
(4:25 PM) AEN: oh
(4:25 PM) AEN: and he linked the 4 jnanas to the 4 yogas
(4:26 PM) Thusness: where?
(4:26 PM) AEN: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=78548&hl=
(4:26 PM) AEN: tsultrim serri
post Oct 15 2008, 11:36 PM



(5:19 PM) Thusness: actually what he said about prajna and jhana is quite good. But u have to know that it is not the sort of jhana as in concentration.
(5:20 PM) Thusness: it is the experience of effortlessness in non-dual luminosity.
(5:22 PM) Thusness: There will come a time every day mundane activities, practice and enlightenment is just one substance.
(5:24 PM) AEN: no he said jnana
(5:24 PM) AEN: jnana is more like knowledge
(5:24 PM) AEN: not jhana absorption :P
(5:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:25 PM) Thusness: ic
(5:26 PM) Thusness: There will come a time when emptiness becomes so clear and the separation is no more then without the need to recall or remind. The last veil that separates is like permanently gone. Then there is no practice because all moments of arising phenomena is just one practice.
(5:28 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:28 PM) AEN: thats what he means by observing emptiness and 'being' emptiness rite
(5:28 PM) AEN: i mean the difference between it
(5:29 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
(5:29 PM) AEN:
In a post above, i distinguished between the two. I know you asked Matylda, but until she replies, if she does, possibly i could be of help.
Prajna is the tool that sees emptiness. It is actually an expansion of awareness, using awareness in the context of mindfulness/awareness. Awareness gets to a point where it discovers the nature of mind which includes emptiness. At that point, awareness transforms into prajna. There are lesser stages of prajna as well, but i would have to review them.
Prajna has been likened to the mother of all the Buddhas, because through its activity the mind that becomes the Buddha mind is born. Actually, it has always been there, and is unborn, but let's not quibble.
(5:29 PM) AEN:
So, prajna sees emptiness. When first seen, however, one feels emptiness as separate from what has discovered it. There is still a slight trace of dualism. We experience this dualism as a seeking for emptinesss ie there is a seeker and something sought. At the realization of jnana, this duality melts, so to speak, and emptiness exists or doesn't exist without a sense of something observing it. Also, one attains wisdom when emptiness arises, not wisdom about anything, simply being in the state of wisdom. With prajna, one observes that wisdom; with jnana, one becomes it.
Tsultrim
Dec 4, 2018, 11:36:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
(continued)


(5:35 PM) Thusness: jnana here does not refer to the type of concentration like it said. It is an effortless non-dual luminous experience due to the maturing of prajna.
(5:35 PM) Thusness: I have often said clear until absorbed. Vividness of forms.
(5:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:37 PM) Thusness: It is the outcome of the clarity of insight due to the dissolving of that tendency to divide. It is natural, not a form of attention or concentration. This should not be misunderstood.
(5:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:38 PM) Thusness: He mentioned about luminosity is the last fruition stage and one must go through emptiness to realise this stage.
(5:39 PM) Thusness: This is not exactly right. :)
(5:39 PM) Thusness: Advaita Vedanta practitioner will experience the opposite. :)
(5:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:39 PM) AEN: but for mahamudra it is like that rite?
(5:39 PM) AEN: theravada also?
(5:39 PM) AEN: like dharma dan
(5:40 PM) Thusness: yes
(5:40 PM) AEN: cos rite
(5:40 PM) Thusness: it is because of right view
(5:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:40 PM) Thusness: without the right view, u will experience luminosity aspect of awareness without knowing its empty nature.
(5:40 PM) Thusness: that is more dangerous.

(5:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:41 PM) Thusness: therefore establishment of right view is most important. Seeds are planted.
(5:42 PM) Thusness: It is better not to experience then to experience the wrong stuff and makes it more difficult to get out of the dualistic experience of Eternal Witness.
(5:42 PM) AEN: icic..


(Though in later years, Thusness and I agree that it's probably a good thing for people to go through the I AM phase first, it can shorten the path provided that there is good guidance, otherwise one can get stuck in I AM for their whole life)
Dec 4, 2018, 11:36:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
"- It's very, very joyous, as we all know, as it's the first glimpse of real espirituality. Real change in the mind. Real "seeing" of truth, even it's not final."

Yes, even the I AM realization is blissful and joyous, but it is not the same as first bhumi. As Thusness said before, Luminosity is Blissful but not liberating. It is the realization of emptiness, or the union of luminosity and emptiness, that is liberating. It is the bliss of nirvana, not just a blissful state of Presence or Clarity.

"- As the first bhumi is in the path of seeing (and the rest in the path of meditation), it also fits."

It is different. In many Buddhist paths, one indeeds start from the direct realization of Presence-Awareness (similar to I AMness). As Lopon Malcolm (qualified and asked to teach Dzogchen by his guru Kunzang Dechen Lingpa) pointed out, in the Dzogchen path, one really starts practicing Dzogchen when one has a direct recognition of Rigpa as the clarity radiance aspect of Rigpa, but this is not yet the realization of emptiness. The realization of emptiness, and first bhumi, happens on the Third out of the Four Visions of Thodgal.

You can read Malcolm (Lopon Namdrol/Malcolm)'s posts in Dharmawheel, I like to read his posts from time to time.

Likewise in Mahamudra, the Luminosity aspect (unfabricated Clarity or Presence) is pointed out in the First Yoga of One Pointedness, yet the first bhumi is only starting from the Yoga of One Taste (where both perceiver and perceived are realized to be empty and the subject/object duality is severed) according to Clarifying the Natural State by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal and his other book Moonlight of Mahamudra.

So on and so forth.
Dec 4, 2018, 11:43:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
Also in 2007, conversation with Thusness:

(9:23 PM) Thusness: why i have stated 6?
(9:23 PM) AEN: stated 6?
(9:23 PM) AEN: u mean why have u stated that 6 is needed?
(9:23 PM) Thusness: 6 stages
(9:23 PM) AEN: oic
(9:24 PM) AEN: erm bcos need to go through different level of understanding first?
(9:24 PM) Thusness: because i want to include other religions and mysticism form of enlightenment
(9:24 PM) Thusness: all are included
(9:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:26 PM) Thusness: in buddhism only stage 5 onwards is enlightenment
(9:27 PM) AEN: icic
(9:27 PM) Thusness: in christianity and mysticism and hinduism, stage 1 - 4 is enlightenment
(9:27 PM) Thusness: stage 5 onwards is unknown to them
Dec 4, 2018, 11:44:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
"- Tradition doesnt say that you realize Anatta in the 1st Bhumi, saya that there's the first glimpse of emptiness (sunyata). And certainly for the first time the meditator faces something without característics, some kind of "atman" or emptiness-I"


You are completely misunderstanding emptiness as defined by Buddhadharma here.

I suggest reading this article:

https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/02/nondual-emptiness-teachings.html

"For those who encounter emptiness teachings after they've become familiar with awareness teachings, it's very tempting to misread the emptiness teachings by substituting terms. That is, it's very easy to misread the emptiness teachings by seeing "emptiness" on the page and thinking to yourself, "awareness, consciousness, I know what they're talking about."

Early in my own investigations I began with this substitution in mind. With this misreading, I found a lot in the emptiness teachings to be quite INcomprehensible! So I started again, laying aside the notion that "emptiness" and "awareness" were equivalent. I tried to let the emptiness teachings speak for themselves. I came to find that they have a subtle beauty and power, a flavor quite different from the awareness teachings. Emptiness teachings do not speak of emptiness as a true nature that underlies or supports things. Rather, it speaks of selves and things as essenceless and free. "

"
• Emptiness is not a substance
• Emptiness is not a substratum or background
• Emptiness is not light
• Emptiness is not consciousness or awareness
• Emptiness is not the Absolute
• Emptiness does not exist on its own
• Objects do not consist of emptiness
• Objects do not arise from emptiness
• Emptiness of the "I" does not negate the "I"
• Emptiness is not the feeling that results when no objects are appearing to the mind
• Meditating on emptiness does not consist of quieting the mind"
Dec 4, 2018, 11:47:00 PM
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Anonymous Tao said...
There's not an accepted translation bhumis-to-4 yogas.

Quoting Astus from Dharma Wheel here we have some options:


Tsele Natsok Rangdrol (Lamp of Mahamudra):


some say: 3 stages of simplicity and arriving at one taste - first bhumi and path of cultivation
most say: post-meditation after attaining simplicity - first bhumi / path of sseeing

first stage of simplicity - 1-3 bhumi
medium stage of simplicity - 4-5 bhumi
greater simplicity - sixth bhumi
first stage of one taste - seventh bhumi
medium one taste - eighth bhumi
higher stage of one taste - ninth bhumi
lesser and medium stages of nonmeditation - tenth bhumi

greater nonmeditation - buddhahood/vajradhara, 11-13 bhumi

Dakpo Tashi Namgyal (Mahamudra: The Moonlight):

based on Drelpa Dönsal:
[path of virtuous absorption - one-pointed yoga
path of insight - non-discrimination yoga]
path of meditation (bhumi 2-10) - one taste yoga
buddhahood - nonmeditation yoga

based on Je Gyare:
path of spiritual merit - preparatory practices
path of virtuous absorption - one-pointed yoga
path of insight - nondiscrimination yoga
path of meditation - one flavor yoga
9-10 bhumi - lower-middle nonmeditation
buddhadhood - greater nonmeditation

Tashi Namgyal's own:
path of spiritual merits and first ground - preparatory practices and three levels of one-pointed yoga
path of virtuous absorpation and ground of joy - three levels of nondiscriminatory yoga
path of insight and meditation, 1-10 grounds - 1-3 levels of one flavor and 1-2 levels of nonmeditation
buddhahood - greater nonmeditation

Of all the quoted options, mi favorite is relating the first bhumi to I AM and to the culmination of One-pointness and beginning of Simplicity.

But, who really knows?
Dec 4, 2018, 11:49:00 PM
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Blogger Soh said...
Please refer to page 101 of Clarifying the Natural State, quote:

"The three meditation stages of One Taste and the lesser
and medium Nonmeditation corresponds to the duration
from the level of the first bhumi and the path of seeing, as
well as to the path of cultivation from the second to the
tenth bhumi."

Clearly Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is stating the first bhumi starts with One Taste.

In any case, the Yoga of Simplicity does have some insight into emptiness, yet somehow the anatta nondual sort of realization is missing and only comes in the Yoga of One Taste in the Mahamudra system.

I'm 100% confident that I AM cannot be equated with First Bhumi. Why? First Bhumi is like the Mahayana equivalent of Stream Entry.

All views of Self (or inherent existence) are eliminated in that direct realization of emptiness, and the complete elimination of self-view is the criteria from scriptures for both Stream Entry and 1st Bhumi (even after the elimination of self-view, traces of self can arise like the leftover stench of a jar when its contents are poured out -- see Khemaka Sutta -- but the self will not be seen as real and existing, when all traces of self are eliminated one attains liberation ala Arahantship or 8th bhumi).

Therefore, Thusness Stage 1 and 4 are automatically disqualified as possible candidates of both first bhumi and stream entry, as all of them have not yet overcome various gross and subtle views of eternalism and essentialism or self-view.

You cannot possibly hold the view of an eternal Self, source and substratum, and still claim to be free from views of Self.

If I have time I will try to find some sutra quotations of first bhumi.
Dec 5, 2018, 12:02:00 AM
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Anonymous Tao said...
>You are completely misunderstanding emptiness as defined by Buddhadharma here.

It's just an opinion. I think my understading of buddhist emptiness is quite solid.

Remember I said "some kind of emptiness-I"... I didnt meaning sunyata.

If the first bhumi was realizing Anatta, why would they say that "it's the first glimpse of emptiness"?

Samdhinimorcana sutra speaks a lot about bhumis, and never says something even close to that...

If we all realize first I AM, and it's a ground, how could it not be the first ground?

Descriptions of this first ground, are not super clear, but they're not in contradition with my point.

Anyway, it not really important, we have to walk all of them :)

Sorry, I couldnt read all you posted, too much. Buy I thank you the effort.



Dec 5, 2018, 12:03:00 AM
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Anonymous Tao said...
>Clearly Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is stating the first bhumi starts with One Taste.

True, but other Mahamudra masters say different thing. So it's not clear at all.

>First Bhumi is like the Mahayana equivalent of Stream Entry.

Not clear about that. Any sutric support for this affirmation? Anyway it's a nice point. A good one.

But all the Mahamudra yogas, are somekind of "ground".

Anyway I agree Anatta is realized across one-taste. And that's the important part... :)

As T. says: Have a nive journey!
Dec 5, 2018, 12:14:00 AM
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Blogger Soh said...
"According to Tsong Khapa, first level bodhisattvas directly understand that persons do not exist by way of their own nature. Due to this, they overcome the false idea that the five aggregates constitute a truly existent person. They also eliminate predispositions toward corrupted ethics so completely that they will not arise again.[6]"

- John Powers, Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism


Also, from a Buddhist Glossary -


Two emptinesses (二空) include (1) emptiness of self, the ātman, the soul, in a person composed of the five aggregates, constantly changing with causes and conditions; and (2) emptiness of selves in all dharmas—each of the five aggregates, each of the twelve fields, and each of the eighteen spheres, as well as everything else with no independent existence. No-self in any dharma implies no-self in a person, but the latter is separated out in the first category. Realization of the emptiness of self in a person will lead to attainment of Arhatship or Pratyekabuddhahood. Bodhisattvas who have realized both emptinesses ascend to the First Ground on their Way to Buddhahood.


Also, from Chinese commentary on sutras:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-mahayana-model-of-awakening_2.html


1. The Joyous Ground: The Bodhisattva's initial entrance into sainthood, breaking through the confusion of views, realizing the principle of twofold emptiness of person and dharma. (The Bodhisattva) gives rise to great joy, therefore it is called The Joyous Ground. At this ground, (one) accomplishes the Paramita of Dana (generosity) among the Bodhisattva Ten Paramitas.
Commentary: View-Confusion - the various forms of delusional and deviant views, extreme views (e.g. eternalism/nihilism, existence/non-existence), self views, etc.
Dana - Generosity, has the meaning of 'relinquishment'.
Paramita - has the meaning of 'to the other shore'.

(Chinese: 一、欢喜地:为菩萨初得圣性,破见惑,证人法二空之理,生大欢喜,故名欢喜地。于此地成就菩萨十波罗蜜中之檀波罗蜜。(注:见惑──种种妄见、邪见、边见、我见等之妄惑。檀──布施,即舍义。波罗蜜──乃到彼岸的意思。) )




Also, ask any Lamas/Rinpoches/Teachers and they can affirm that the first Bhumi Bodhisattva has direct realization of Sunyata (Emptiness). Not anything like Atman-Brahman.

You will never find any sutras that state the first bhumi Bodhisattva realizes Atman-Brahman, on the contrary, they will state that the first bhumi Bodhisattva realizes Emptiness - Sunyata.

Also "ground" just means a stage of attainment. It has nothing to do with an Atman-Brahman.

"The Sanskrit term bhūmi literally means "ground" or "foundation". Each stage represents a level of attainment, and serves as a basis for the next one. Each level marks a definite advancement in one's training, that is accompanied by progressively greater power and wisdom."
Dec 5, 2018, 12:28:00 AM
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Blogger Soh said...
Also I am quite doubtful you have personally realized Anatta. Do note that non-dual has different phases -- One Mind, No Mind, and Anatta realization. More often than not one is in One Mind and No Mind phase, and has not realized Anatta. The aspect of the realization of view will become very clear after realization of anatta and especially twofold emptiness.

I discussed the differences in:

https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/10/differentiating-i-am-one-mind-no-mind.html

https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/11/no-mind-and-anatta-focusing-on-insight.html

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/09/difference-between-thusness-stage-4-and.html
Dec 5, 2018, 12:30:00 AM
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Blogger Soh said...
I tend to agree with Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's mapping of Four Yogas with Bhumis, but even if the other Mahamudra masters are right (the others seem to map first bhumi/lower bhumi with the yoga of simplicity) it still affirms my position -- since the Yoga of Simplicity is described as the realizing of the non-arising (sunyata, emptiness) of all phenomena. As I said, certain insights of emptiness has arisen but not yet non-dual anatta. But you will not see them describing the earlier stages as I AMness.

This is the case of Tsultrim -- his insights of emptiness has arisen before nondual anatta luminosity.
Dec 5, 2018, 12:33:00 AM
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Blogger Soh said...
《成唯识论》卷9云:“言十地者,一极喜地。初获圣性,具证二空,能益自他,生大喜故。”

The Vijñāptimātratāsiddhi or Discourse on the Perfection of Consciousness-only states: "Of the ten bhumis, the first is the Joyous ground. The initial attainment of Saintliness, realizing Two Emptinesses (of Self and Phenomena), being able to benefit oneself and others, great joy arises."

(My translation)



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Blogger Soh said...
p.s. I just suddenly remembered a conversation I had with Thusness in 2008 on One Taste:


Session Start: Sunday, August 31, 2008

(2:08 PM) Thusness: wah u wrote so much about one taste. :P
(2:08 PM) Thusness: kok ur head!
(2:10 PM) AEN: huh where
(2:10 PM) AEN: lol
(2:10 PM) AEN: i just updated my post
(2:10 PM) AEN: removed some part and added some part
(2:10 PM) Thusness: every place. :P
(2:11 PM) Thusness: next time must do a constant check on the url awakeningtoreality. :P
(2:11 PM) Thusness: One Taste here and there...kok ur head
(2:11 PM) AEN: orh u mean google haha
(2:11 PM) AEN: i tot u mean sgforums
(2:11 PM) Thusness: yeah. Although ken wilber experience is non-dual, it is not exactly One Taste yet.
(2:11 PM) AEN: oic y
(2:11 PM) AEN: one taste include emptiness?
(2:12 PM) Thusness: yes din i tell u?
(2:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:13 PM) Thusness: The non-duality of advaita sort of understanding is different from buddhism.
(2:13 PM) Thusness: how could one reaches the phase of One Taste without understanding the emptiness nature?
(2:14 PM) Thusness: The One Taste realisation is of 2 parts: No object/subject split and both object/subject are empty of any inherent existence.
(2:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:15 PM) Thusness: Penetrating these 2 aspects, insight arises of the One Taste.
(2:15 PM) Thusness: Since when did i tell u about Advaita sort of understanding is non-dual of Buddhism?
(2:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:16 PM) Thusness: So many times I told u it is the empty nature that Buddha came to teach us, not only the luminosity aspect.
(2:16 PM) Thusness: The non-dual luminous nature is described all over the Vedas
(2:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:17 PM) Thusness: kok ur head!
(2:18 PM) Thusness: Anyone not talking about the 3 seals, understanding the anatta sort of non-duality is not talking about Buddhism.
(2:19 PM) Thusness: anyone that lead to the understanding of Brahman is deluded in Buddhist perspective. The One Mind, the One Reality is the non-inherent in nature.
(2:19 PM) Thusness: it should not be understood from a dualistic and inherent perspective.
(2:19 PM) AEN: oic but ken wilber talk about brahman meh :P
(2:20 PM) Thusness: Yes.
(2:20 PM) AEN: oic
(2:21 PM) Thusness: Therefore the experience is non-dual but the insight isn't.

(comments by Soh: Ken Wilber's insight is Thusness Stage 4 but he erroneously equates his Brahman-style nondual realisation with Mahamudra's One Taste)


Blogger Soh said...
Chandrakirti states that the first bhumi has direct realization of the nonexistence of the self:

"b. The five additional qualities of lineage, elimination, realization, ability, and progression 6 (1) The first bodhisattva ground transcends the levels of ordinary beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas. The Bodhisattvas who enter this ground become members of the family of the Tathagatas; they will never more stray to other paths, for their lineage is now irreversible. (2) The Bodhisattvas on this ground have a direct realization of the nonexistence of the self. This enables them to abandon the three fetters:

the view of the transitory composite, the belief in the superiority of their ethical discipline, and doubt—together with all the obscurations eliminated on the path of seeing. (3) Because they have attained the sublime qualities of realization and have eliminated all defects, the Bodhisattvas experience an extraordinary happiness, which is why this ground is called Perfect Joy. (4) At the same time, the Bodhisattvas acquire one hundred and twelve powers, such as the miraculous ability to cause a hundred different worlds to tremble. 63 These are the qualities of their extraordinary, indeed sublime attainment. 7 Finally, (5) the Bodhisattvas’ quality of progression means that they joyously proceed to the higher grounds, from first to second and so forth.

c. Birth in the lower realms is no longer possible"


Etc etc


From Introduction to the Middle Way: Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara with Commentary by Ju Mipham
Dec 5, 2018, 6:07:00 PM
 
 
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    6 (1) The first bodhisattva ground transcends the levels of ordinary beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas. The Bodhisattvas who enter this ground become members of the family of the Tathagatas; they will never more stray to other paths, for their lineage is now irreversible. (2) The Bodhisattvas on this ground have a direct realization of the nonexistence of the self. This enables them to abandon the three fetters: the view of the transitory composite, the belief in the superiority of their ethical discipline, and doubt—together with all the obscurations eliminated on the path of seeing. (3) Because they have attained the sublime qualities of realization and have eliminated all defects, the Bodhisattvas experience an extraordinary happiness, which is why this ground is called Perfect Joy. (4) At the same time, the Bodhisattvas acquire one hundred and twelve powers, such as the miraculous ability to cause a hundred different worlds to tremble.63 These are the qualities of their extraordinary, indeed sublime attainment. 7 Finally, (5) the Bodhisattvas’ quality of progression means that they joyously proceed to the higher grounds, from first to second and so forth. c. Birth in the lower realms is no longer possible It is said that when Bodhisattvas reach the first ground, all paths whereby they might fall into the lower realms are closed. The realization of the level of “acceptance” on the path of joining,64 in fact, does not furnish the complete conditions for prevention of lower birth, whereas on the first ground, the seed for such a birth is counteracted by antidotes and annihilated. Bodhisattvas who attain the first ground are now Aryas or Superiors, for they can never relapse into the states of ordinary beings. This ground of the Mahayana is said to correspond, by analogy, to the eighth Arya level of the Hinayana (that of “Stream Enterer abiding by the result”). This is according to a scheme65 that counts the state of “Arhat abiding by the result” as the first level, and proceeds in reverse order through the level of “candidate for arhatship,” and so on, to that of “Stream Enterer abiding by the result.” On all these levels, all that is eliminated by the wisdom of seeing and so forth is abandoned, and all corresponding qualities of elimination and realization are gained. The eighth level is sometimes explained as referring to the stage of “candidate for Stream Enterer.” 2. The qualities whereby Bodhisattvas outshine other beings 8 With enlightenment as their aim, Bodhisattvas, while only on the first ground, overwhelm the Shravakas, born from the Buddha’s speech, and eclipse the Pratyekabuddhas. They do this through the power of their merit accruing from relative bodhichitta and nonreferential compassion; for compared with the Shravakas and Pratyekabuddhas, the merit of Bodhisattvas is ever-increasing. It is on the seventh ground, called Far Progressed, that they outshine them also by their wisdom, their understanding of absolute bodhichitta. 3. The superior quality of the first ground a. The preeminence of the paramita of generosity on the first ground 9 Of the ten paramitas, the causes of perfect buddhahood, that of generosity is the most important for Bodhisattvas on the first ground. Even when they donate their own flesh, they are free from even the most subtle attachment and clinging to its existence. Consequently, not only do they have no regret, but they act with the keenest enthusiasm. On being witness to such deeds, ordinary people can infer what they cannot see, namely, that the Bodhisattva has attained the grounds of realization, in much the same way that fire can be inferred by the presence of smoke. b. In praise of generosity i. In praise of the generosity of ordinary people (1) Generosity is necessary for ordinary people 10 Ordinary beings want only to be happy. But happiness, the cure of human sufferings like hunger and thirst, does not occur uncaused; it requires material sustenance. Knowing that such wealth is the karmic fruit of acts of generosity performed in the past, the Buddha praised it in his first teaching, even before ethical discipline and the rest. And he did so, furthermore, because generosity is easy to practice. (2) The benefits of generosity (a) Generosity brings happiness in samsara 11 Even for people whose faith and compassion are negligible, whose disposition is extremely rough and who bestir themselves only in their own interest, the getting of material satisfaction—in other words, a reprieve from their portion of sorrows—comes solely as the karmic result of generosity. Generosity is therefore the source and origin of samsaric happiness. (b) Generosity leads to the bliss of nirvana 12 Moreover, even if they have no compassion, open-handed people will, as a result of their generosity, swiftly find themselves in the presence of superior beings. For it is in the nature of things that sublime beings appear in the vicinity of generous people. And the latter, on meeting them and receiving their teachings, turn their backs on samsara and meditate on the path. So doing, they completely sever the continuum of samsaric birth and death. On the basis of such encounters, they progress toward the peace of the Shravakas and Pratyekabuddhas. ii. In praise of the generosity of Bodhisattvas 13 Thanks to their generosity, which satisfies all who ask, Bodhisattvas, who have promised to benefit beings immediately and ultimately, are quick to obtain happiness, the resultant effect of giving. That is why they constantly delight in it. iii. Concluding summary of praise For compassionate Bodhisattvas and for ordinary beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas, who are imperfect in their compassion, the bliss of the higher realms and the ultimate goodness of enlightenment are the outcome of generous giving. Thus the teachings on generosity are of paramount importance. iv. The respectful attitude of Bodhisattvas toward generosity thus praised (1) The extent to which they are devoted to generosity 14 When they hear a beggar crying “Give!” or even when they think of such a thing—in other words, when the merest thought occurs to them that they might have the chance to practice generosity—Bodhisattvas experience a joy greater than that of Arhats entering the expanse of peace beyond suffering. Is there any need to speak of their happiness when they actually do give away everything—their possessions and even their physical organs—to satisfy the wants of those in need? (2) How they respectfully practice generosity 15 Because they are so delighted by the practice of giving, Bodhisattvas have no thought for their own suffering; instead they try to remove that of others as quickly as they can. For they see or understand that the pain they felt (when as ordinary beings they had the flesh of their bodies cut and given away) is as nothing compared with the agony of beings in hell, whose suffering is a thousand times worse.
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    c. Different kinds of generosity 16 An act of generosity associated with the pure wisdom whereby one sees that neither act of giving, nor gift to be given, neither receiver nor giverb has any real existence is called a transmundane perfection, or paramita. The Sanskrit word paramita is a combination of the elements para and ita. Para takes the accusative termination –am, while ita assumes the visarga aspiration which is a sign of the nominative case: thus, param + itah. When combined, this gives paramita. The “m” termination and the visarga are not normally audible in a compounded form. However, since the second element begins with a vowel, the preceding nasalization is heard while the visarga remains mute. Even when an act of generosity is not combined with wisdom, it can still be referred to as a paramita. For it has been said that if generosity is dedicated to complete enlightenment, it is certainly on the way to the far shore—“gone to the far shore” being the sense of the Tibetan words pha rol tu phyin pa and the Sanskrit paramita. The Tibetan term may be interpreted in two ways. In the first case, the “far shore” is understood in the sense of the Tibetan accusative,c indicative of movement toward a destination. In this case the term means “gone to the far shore,” that is, buddhahood. According to this interpretation, perfect transcendent virtue is found only in the state of perfect buddhahood and indeed is that state. In the second case, pha rol tu phyin pa may be interpreted in an instrumental sense, in other words, referring to the means whereby buddhahood is attained. In this sense, transcendental virtues are found even on the path of learning. In short, para or pha rol refers to the far shore, that is, the far shore of the ocean of samsara. This is buddhahood wherein the two veils are stripped away. By contrast, it is taught that when there is attachment to the three spheres, the generosity in question is referred to as a worldly paramita because it is still qualified by dualistic reference. C. Concluding summary of the first ground 17 Just like the moon aloft in the sky, Bodhisattvas ride high in the wisdom of the first ground because the bodhichitta of the first ground is now an intrinsic part of their minds. Such Bodhisattvas are supremely holy beings, radiantly beautiful with the light of wisdom. Like the moon, the jeweled mandala of water crystal, the Bodhisattvas on the first ground of Perfect Joy eliminate through their wisdom the thick darkness of those obscurations that are removed on the path of seeing.66 They overcome them and are completely free. Here ends the first ground or stage in the cultivation of absolute bodhichitta.
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    In summary: first bhumi is functionally mahayana stream entry which realizes the non existence of self and directly realises suchness due to the non existence of perceiver and perceived, puts an end to the three lower fetters, puts an end to rebirth in lower realms, and one attains the transcendent perfection of generosity whereby one sees neither the act of giving, nor gift to be given, nor receiver.
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    Self-view in the first fetter [that is eliminated in Stream Entry and First Bhumi] includes the view of Eternal Witness, and the wrong view of partial-eternalism where consciousness is unchanging while all other aggregates change, even the Upanishadic infinite Self is named and refuted by Buddhas as a wrong view. The Buddha has specifically described and named these views, and they are all grouped under sakkaya ditthi, the erroneous view of self. All these are defined clearly by Buddha and falls under the category of Self-View: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../anatta-not...
    Anyone who has read the suttas will know that I AM and one mind levels of realisation are non-Buddhist realisations and such substantialist views are categorically rejected and relinquished upon realising the nature of dharma, even in stream entry.
    Rupert Spira's view is that of a static, monistic consciousness subsuming everything into 'itself'.
    To be free from self view is to be free from *All* views of self/Self, eternalism and nihilism, partial eternalism, etc.
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