[22/4/18, 8:40:51 PM] John Tan: Lately I kept seeing articles and conversations relating to "nothingness" wonder y.
[22/4/18, 8:41:13 PM] John Tan: The mysterious gate of taoism.
[22/4/18, 8:42:32 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. maybe u should write something about it.. lol
[22/4/18, 8:44:36 PM] John Tan: Lol...Taoist valley spirit is the opposite of clarity...it attempts to express the depth "source" of life.
[22/4/18, 8:47:18 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. sounds like Christianity? Was reading some Christian mystic website I think based on Father Thomas keating. They are aware of I AM and witnessing but states that the goal of Christian contemplation is beyond that, is the source of that and will and doing
[22/4/18, 8:47:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Or something like that
[22/4/18, 8:47:45 PM] John Tan: Nothingness
[22/4/18, 8:47:59 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[22/4/18, 8:48:08 PM] John Tan: Even nisargadatta
[22/4/18, 8:49:22 PM] John Tan: There is nothing to contemplate as it cannot be approached through a known mind.
[22/4/18, 8:49:45 PM] Soh Wei Yu: They call it contemplative prayer
[22/4/18, 8:49:56 PM] Soh Wei Yu: More like prayer.. or meditation.. dunno what is it. Maybe surrendering
[22/4/18, 8:50:08 PM] John Tan: Yes
[22/4/18, 8:50:23 PM] John Tan: The tao is the way
[22/4/18, 8:51:00 PM] John Tan: The way of always in Union with the "source"
[22/4/18, 8:51:12 PM] John Tan: Or even yoga
[22/4/18, 8:51:39 PM] John Tan: One has to be aware of this dimension but nothing to seek.
[22/4/18, 8:52:18 PM] John Tan: It is rather only in daily encounter and manifestation
[22/4/18, 8:55:01 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Union with source is like divine happening?
[22/4/18, 8:55:08 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Not my will but the source
[22/4/18, 8:56:12 PM] John Tan: Yes but we cannot approach the  "unfathomable depth" through "knowing".  only moment to moment gnosis in seeing, feeling, thinking, tasting, hearing and smelling.
[22/4/18, 8:57:31 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Knowing as in intellect?
[22/4/18, 8:58:51 PM] John Tan: Yes intellect.  The way to understanding the nature of aliveness and clarity is to fully "live" and "express".
[22/4/18, 8:59:00 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[22/4/18, 9:00:01 PM] John Tan: Taoism is unique in this sense in expressing this dark illumination
[22/4/18, 9:03:33 PM] Soh Wei Yu: How is it unique?
[22/4/18, 9:09:19 PM] John Tan: it is not really interested in presence
[22/4/18, 9:10:25 PM] John Tan: But what is behind presence...when in deep sleep, where is awareness?
[22/4/18, 9:11:00 PM] John Tan: So the valley spirit is often described as dark
[22/4/18, 9:14:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[22/4/18, 9:15:56 PM] John Tan: How is this different from anatta?
[22/4/18, 9:24:31 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta does not see something behind presence but source is none other than manifestation
[22/4/18, 9:25:10 PM] John Tan: What does source is none other manifestation mean to u?
[22/4/18, 9:26:42 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Means when hearing sound, I don’t see it arising out of a nothingness but sound springs from right where it is fully aliveness and full expression of life
[22/4/18, 9:27:59 PM] John Tan: First u must differentiate between experiential insight that there is nothing behind and directly experiencing presence as the 6 entries and exits.
[22/4/18, 9:28:35 PM] John Tan: From seeing through conventions and how the mind mistaken.
[22/4/18, 9:30:10 PM] John Tan: How the mind mistakes and reify conventions.  How the mind attempt to fix and fit and explain in a "known" pattern according to it's existing paradigm.
[22/4/18, 9:31:28 PM] John Tan: What r the difference?  And only when these 2 insights arise, practitioner can clearly understand and experience.
[22/4/18, 9:34:31 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Insight that there is nothing behind is realising anatta, directly experience presence is all six senses is just pce (pure consciousness experience, as in http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/pce.htm)
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