Someone wrote:
Anatta
Question

Hi friends.

I have a question.

First, I have to quickly give some back ground.

Several years ago, I had a profound experience. It was as if a veil was removed and I suddenly saw that I didn't exist. There were no Self or free will inside that could control this organism that is the body. I spent years observing myself and others from this perspective. It was the first thing I thought of when I woke up in the morning and the last thing I thought of before falling to sleep, until I was empty.

Nobody around me saw the same thing or got mad if I talked about it. I started studying science to find support or evidence against my thoughts. It only confirmed that the world is fatalistic and way to complex to understand in each moment. This took me even further.

So, now my life has stopped and there is noone inside to care. Only some faint and weak emotional and mental reactions to whatever stimuli is put in front of my senses. No hopes, ambitions or goals. I don't pay my bills or take care of myself. I mean, why should "I"?

Eventualy, 3-4 years ago, I came over some "spiritual" litterature that mentioned the buddhist doctrine of anatta and samsaric consciousness.

What would a buddhist recommend to do in this situation? I mean, I will either end up dead or in prison soon if nothing happens. I'm okay with that. I don't look forward to physical pain, though.
Is there something worth doing? Is this the end of the "path"? To realise that I don't exist?
...

You are right. It has been very imbalanced and unhealthy, and thus it became exhausting and eventually a problem. But it has also been profound and beautiful experiences, despite the fear, doubt and lack of understanding for what happened. I am at a point where I need some guidence and practices on how to do this properly and the right way, or at least a better and healthier way. So, I think I am open to corrections and guidence. Thank you again.
——
Me/Soh replied:

Hi,

u/krodha (Kyle Dixon) directed me to this post... I think I will share my 2 cents.

There are different degrees of self/Self. I can elaborate a lot of them -- you can find these elaborations on my blog and (free) guide - https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg
But in this post I will just summarise them.

There are three main degrees or aspects of self/Self and no-self/Self experience, although each of them has different degrees of refinement in terms of insight + experience:

1. no-self as 'non-doership'. You no longer feel like a doer or controller, all thoughts and actions are just happening spontaneously on its own accord. You see that even your thoughts and emotions are not from a doer, you can't even know what your next moment of thought is, it just happens. When you are thirsty, the hand just grabs the drink on its own accord and the body just gulps down the drink.

A more refined level of non-doership is what I call 'impersonality'. Impersonality is not just an experience of non-doership. It is the dissolving of the construct of 'personal self' that led to a purging of ego effect to a state of clean, pure, not-mine sort of "perception shift", accompanied with a sense that everything and everyone is being expressions of the same aliveness/intelligence/consciousness. This can then be easily extrapolated into a sense of a 'universal source' (but this is merely an extrapolation and at a later phase is deconstructed) and one will also experience 'being lived' by this greater Life and Intelligence.

Impersonality will help dissolve the sense of self but it has the danger of making one attached to a metaphysical essence or to personify, reify and extrapolate a universal consciousness. Deeper insights into anatta and emptiness will dissolve this tendency to reify and extrapolate.

Also, I should also mention that there is another insight or realization -- and this is not the same as non-doership but rather the realization of one's luminous essence as Pure Presence and Clarity. Someone who has experienced non-doership does not necessarily realize that one's very Beingness, Presence-Awareness, that I AMness -- that remains even without engaging in concepts/thinking. It is when at a moment where all engagement in thoughts subside, in that gap, there is this sudden realization of doubtless Existence itself, that even without a thought, just I/Existence/Consciousness. And you realize that is the Luminous core of Existence itself. It is consciousness, pure beingness and bliss. This realization is often reified into the Atman but I consider this realization precious and important and a progression from mere non-doership, but on later realizations below will get refined, especially with realization of anatta. Realization of anatta in point 3) sees the nature of this Presence-Awareness, not by denying it but properly comprehending it - its non-inherent, empty and non-dual nature of that Presence-Awareness (also its nondual aspect does not imply realizing its empty nature, but I will not elaborate too much yet). But basically if you have this realization, you will not end up sounding so nihilistic because you have discovered a very positive luminous core of Existence. Also, after this realization, you feel like an infinite Ground of Being underlying all your thoughts and in fact the entire world. When you jog across the streets, no longer do you see yourself as a person relating to objects out there, rather, all objects and trees and people and scenery actually emerge and subside and 'pass through' from within that Ground of Being, much like the projections of a movie merely 'pass through' the screen. You no longer feel like someone that pass by things, rather your body and mind, the scenery and objects are merely 'projected from' and 'pass by' within unmoved Beingness.

However someone who realize non-doership may not yet realize that Presence-Awareness, so doing self-enquiry (asking Who/What am I?) can help one going into that direction.

2) no-self in terms of the penetrating and dissolving of the subject/object or perceiver/perceived dichotomy. This relates to the sense of being an internal subjective perceiver perceiving the world of objects in the senses. In other words, normal people feel deeply that they are relating to the world from behind their own eyes, as someone perceiving an 'outside world' of trees and people and objects and so on and the shapes and colors and characteristics of those trees/tables/objects are just inherent attributes of observer-independent objects 'out there', and they are merely observing them from a vantagepoint 'within' their body as an internal perceiver -- subject, and object. Perceiver and perceived. And this is so not only in relation to sights but even sounds and other sensory perceptions, for normal people hear sound as if the sound is somewhere 'out there' while they are located and hearing the sounds from somewhere 'in here', that is to say, inside their own body (exactly where that is, is uncertain, and upon examination some people may say it is the head, some people point to their heart, basically normal people don't examine things clearly and just take their sense of self and duality for granted). But this sense of self and sense of duality is a very real experience for most people, that they have unquestioningly taken it for granted as their reality.

It should be understood and noted that someone who has experienced the non-doership or even impersonality aspect of no-self in 1), may not experience non-duality in 2). In other words, one can still experience everything happening on its own accord, but still feel like a dissociated observer detached from things happening on their own. In a sense, it's almost like everything the body and mind is doing seems like another person, like you are playing a third person shooter game where you are sort of watching the whole character from a distance behind, except in a dissociated state you aren't even 'controlling' the character people refer to as 'you' -- rather, you are merely observing this person or body-mind called 'you' acting and thinking and behaving in its own way and you are just this aloof and detached observer of this character or body-mind doing its own thing. Some people have experienced this sort of dissociation coupled with a sense of non-doership.

Now, this means that the sense of doership dissolving does not mean that the subject and object dichotomy is dissolved. Therefore we can call that sense of subject-object duality, or the gap between perceiver and perceived, as a distinct layer of 'self' that can be penetrated in deeper insight.
Now, the dissolution of subject-object/perceiver-perceived dichotomy can happen as an experience, which is transient, short-lived peak experiences, or it can happen as a realization which leads to stabilization of non-dual experience.

As an experience, it is quite commonly experienced and described by people, often spontaneously when they just enjoy music, watch a sunset, enjoy a beautiful scenery and so on, where they suddenly become so engaged and engrossed in their sensory experience that they have totally forgotten their 'self' -- and in the act of forgetting the self they enter into what seems like a different state of consciousness, a very vivid and intensified one where they are no longer 'seeing' the sunset from a distance, they are the very sunset itself -- they may describe it as 'I have merged with the sun!' 'I have become the trees!' There is suddenly no longer this sense that 'I' am someone 'in here' separate from the 'sun over there', there is just brilliant and very alive bright orange light displaying itself to itself at no distance at all, a very vivid, brilliant and alive display of colors as clear vivid consciousness.

In describing such a peak experience, Michael Jackson wrote,

“Consciousness expresses itself through creation. This world we live in is the dance of the creator. Dancers come and go in the twinkling of an eye but the dance lives on. On many an occasion when I am dancing, I have felt touched by something sacred. In those moments, I felt my spirit soar and become one with everything that exists.

I become the stars and the moon. I become the lover and the beloved. I become the victor and the vanquished. I become the master and the slave. I become the singer and the song. I become the knower and the known. I keep on dancing then it is the eternal dance or creation. The creator and creation merge into one wholeness of joy. I keep on dancing...and dancing...and dancing. Until there is only...the dance.”

However, what is described here is still merely an experience. An experience of non-duality, but not the realisation. Such experiences come and go. Some people engage in dangerous sports to enter the zone and glimpse the bliss of non-duality, some people do it through dance, some people through certain drugs, some people do it through meditation.

But all these experiences come and go, until a paradigm shift takes place in consciousness where one suddenly realizes that the truth about reality or consciousness is that there never was a subject and object division, that consciousness was in truth never from the beginning ever divided into a perceiver and perceived, consciousness and its display, that they were never separate to begin with. After insights into non-duality, the tendency will no longer be to dissociate from experience but to fully open to experience in an undivided and gapless way -- experiencing everything without distance as vivid consciousness.

Such a realization can however be divided into two types:

a) substantialist/essentialist non-duality
b) non-substantialist/non-essentialist non-duality

The latter, I call the realization of anatta, proper.

But lets talk about a) substantialist/essentialist non-duality in summary:

Such a person may have realized that their consciousness was never divided from manifestations, that all manifestations are none other than consciousness itself. However the karmic (deep conditioning) tendencyto conceive of consciousness as an inherently existing, unchanging source and substratum of phenomena, remains — except consciousness is now seen to be undivided from its manifestation, so one subsumes everything to be modulations of Pure Consciousness. One sees that all phenomena are merely Consciousness displaying itself in various forms. Yet one does not equate the forms with consciousness -- the forms are like passing light shows displayed on an unchanging screen/mirror, while the projections and reflections pass through inseparably from the base of the mirror without subject/object division, the underlying basis of consciousness remains unchanged. Hinduism can get as far to this point.

3) No-Self in terms of what I call realization of Anatta

But then there is b), where one realizes that not only is it the case that all forms are merely modulations of consciousness, in actual fact 'Awareness' or 'Consciousness' is truly and only Everything -- in other words, there is no 'Awareness' or 'Consciousness' besides the very luminous manifestation of the aggregates, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, touched, cognized, smelled...
Anatta is not merely a freeing of personality sort of experience; rather, there is an insight into the complete lack of a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation. Non-duality is thoroughly seen to be always already so: here is effortlessness in the non-dual and one realizes that in seeing there is always just scenery (no seer or even seeing besides the colors) and in hearing, always just sounds (never a hearer or even a hearing besides the sounds). A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).

To illustrate further due to the importance of this seal, I would like to borrow a quote from the Bahiya Sutta (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/…/ajahn-amaro-on-non…)

‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’…
If a practitioner were to feel that he has gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’ or takes that ‘there is just mere sound’, then this experience is again distorted. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the main difference between a momentary peak experience (lasting minutes or at most an hour) of non-duality, and a permanent quantum shift of perception that makes that peak experience become a permanent mode of perception.
This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept.

In summary, after the realization of anatta of b), and even a), non-dual no longer becomes a passing peak experience that comes and goes, as the entire paradigm of consciousness, knot of perception, mental proliferation -- the continuous activity of projecting a 'self' or 'subject/object dichotomy' is severed at a more fundamental level as the delusional framework through which one perceives the world is undermined. What I can say is that for me personally, for the past 9+ years after realizing anatta, I have not experienced the slightest sense of subject/object duality or agency at all, not even the slightest trace. That is gone for good and is not merely a peak experience here.
What you described in your post is what I called 'non-doership'. And yes, that's a wonderful insight but there are still more wonderful insights down the road that is truly life changing in a very positive way, that I cannot highly recommend enough.

The world experienced after realization and maturation of anatta, after all sense of self/Self in all its facets are totally dissolved, is truly wonderful. Here is how I described it in my (free) guide:

"This is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions, where every color, sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless directness without separation, where life and the universe is experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. - William Blake)"

It's late here and this post is getting way too long and I will address some of your issues regarding non-doership in a separate post tomorrow.
—-
The poster replied:

Oh my world..

I am lost for words right now. I'll try to reply properly when all this has sunk in a bit. You do actually understand. You describe other experiences I have had as well, or glimpses and even "suspicions". I very much look forward to read what you have to say about the issues on non-doership. You have no idea how grateful I am for this. Or.. perhaps you do, actually. I have read it twice now, and I will read it again. Wow.

I think I should read your guide as well. I just scrolled through the table of content and it looks very interesting.

Thank you so, so much!


----------

The next day, I wrote more:

More replies:

After describing the different facets of self/Self and no-self/Self, I'll dwell a little into the pitfalls and misunderstandings of non-doership and no-self.

Someone who goes through non-doership experiences spontaneity and a sense of freedom to a certain degree, yet it often comes with a great deal of confusion that only gets cleared up with deeper insights or pointers.

One possible pitfall is that one could end up with a confused understanding of no-self and non-action.

I wrote this in Facebook in reply to a friend Din Robinson to whom Thusness wrote his "7 stages of experience" (originally 6) in 2006:

Din: "as soon as you take any action or any need for training, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space, not that there's any wrong with that!"

My reply:

This is not true. This is as ridiculous as saying "as long as you take any action to keep fit, such as going to gym, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space"

or

"as long as you take any action to pass your exams, such as studying hard, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space"

or

"as long as you take any action to survive, such as eating and sleeping, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space"

or

"as long as you take any action to cure your disease, such as seeing the doctor, then you are perpetuating the myth of a "you" that exists in time and space"

No-self/Anatta is not about denying thinking, action, carrying water and chopping wood... and this is the key difference between genuine anatta insight from dualistic conceptual understanding. The very notion that "action" and "intention" implies, or necessitates, an "actor", and therefore for non-action the intentions and actions must also cease, is precisely using dualistic thinking to understanding anatta...

Action never required a self (in fact there never was a self or a doer apart from action to begin with: only a delusion of one), and action does not need to perpetuate the myth of a self. The myth of a self is not exactly dependent on action or lack thereof. Sure, action that arises out of the dualistic sense of actor/act where there is an "I" trying to modify or achieve "that" is a form of action produced by ignorance. But not all actions necessarily arise out of an underlying sense of duality. If all actions arise out of a sense of duality, then after awakening one will just die as he cannot even feed himself.

When one is operating with a dualistic way of understanding, one thinks that action implies a self that is doing an act, and one thinks that non-action implies that the self ends with the action. But genuine insight into non-action is simply the realization that never was there a real actor behind action, so there is always in acting just that action - whole being is only the total exertion of action, and this is always already the case but not realized. That is true non-action - there is no subject (actor) performing an act (object).

Futhermore: The myth of a self is not dependent on practice and lack thereof. (Oh but, 'right practice' and 'contemplation' does a lot to deconstruct that myth!) The myth of a self is however dependent on ignorance, and only wisdom ends that ignorance, just like turning on the lights lead to the natural cessation of irrational fear and thinking of monster in the dark room by a child.

There is always only action without a doer. No doer does not deny action, it denies agency, and realization of such leads to the direct, immediate, experience of total exertion/total action where doer/deed is refined till none in one whole movement. There is nothing passive about non-action. Non-action is simply action without self/Self. All actions performed without sense of self/Self is in fact non-action. Without the subjective pole (actor), the objective pole in contrast to the subject (being acted upon) is also automatically negated. Yet clearly, the total exertion - pure action... goes on.

Dogen calls this practice-enlightenment. You do not practice For enlightenment (as some future goal separated from you). Your very practice of actualizing insight of anatta itself is practice-enlightenment. Sitting down is practice is actualization is Buddha-nature is enlightenment. Shitting too can be practice/actualization and that very act is Buddha-nature is enlightenment. Your very practice/actualization/act of just sitting, hearing the wind blowing, sight of scenery, walking on the street, chop wood carry water (without any delusion of self/Self) - that itself is practice-actualization-enlightenment, that is the total exertion where entire being is just entire sound, entire scenery, entire action.. This is non-dual practice and non-dual action.

2) A misunderstanding of no-self leads to a fatalistic and deterministic idea that negates or misunderstands causality and dependent origination. No-self in Buddhadharma is based on the understanding of dependent origination. But dependent origination should not be misunderstood as fatalism or with the idea that 'nothing can be done to accomplish things'.

It would be erroneous if a doctor realizes there is no self, therefore, tells his patients that all diseases are kind of fated or predetermined and so one should just passively surrender to the flow of things and just see what happens. Of course that is just silly. They should be dealt with, quickly and actively. But they are dealt with not via attempting to exert control or hard will via by the false notion of agency (sickness can't be cured merely by trying to will or control it out of existence - there are so many dependencies involved). They are dealt with via seeing its dependent origination and treating its dependent origination in a non-inherent way. Likewise the Buddha is like a great doctor that completely discerns our disease and the cure to our disease, and this is how through discerning dependent origination he taught the four noble truths: the truth of suffering, the cause of suffering, the end of suffering, and the path that ends suffering (which is the noble eightfold path).

Also, as John Tan/Thusness said many years ago:

“Nihilistic tendencies arise when the insight of anatta is skewed towards the no-doership aspect. The happening by itself must be correctly understood. It appears that things are accomplished by doing nothing but in actual case it is things get done due to ripening of action and conditions.

So the lack of self-nature does not imply nothing needs be done or nothing can be done. That is one extreme. At the other end of extreme is the self-nature of perfect control of what one wills, one gets. Both are seen to be false. Action + conditions leads to effect.”

3) Are you aware of the seven factors of awakening taught by the Buddha? They are mindfulness, investigation, energy, rapture, tranquility, stability of mind, and equanimity. This is how we should cultivate in our practice and also gauge where our practice is at. These are the factors to be cultivated, that leads to awakening and liberation. This means our practice should make us joyous, radiant, bright, aware, tranquil, calm, focused, with energy, have deeper insights, and so on. These positive qualities of mind naturally grow more and more as we practice. But if instead we become more and more like a zombie, more and more lethargic and demotivated, that means something is going wrong in our direction and we should investigate that and correct it. After maturing of anatta one feels great energy coursing through one's body and even one's complexions naturally radiates the joy and luminosity that is experienced.

I remember one of the first things John Tan/Thusness asked someone many years ago after that person described certain insight of no-self and non-doership, he asked, "has zealous energy arisen?" and commented, "Advisable to bring the insight of anatta into the active mode."

So it is good to know that there is the passive and active mode of no-self .

There is the passive way of non-doership where one just let things happen on its own, but this is often coupled with a sense of dissociation because one's level of insight has not reached into non-dual level yet. Even after anatta non-duality, it often takes some time to mature that insight and experience such that anatta enters into total action and total exertion. You remember what I said about Michael Jackson? He danced until all sense of self is forgotten into 'just the dance'. Notice that he wasn't sitting cross-legged in lotus posture, he was totally engaged. The people doing dangerous sports also often report entering the zone and forgetting the self into a state of complete unity with their action and environment because any missteps can mean death, and it is this heightened state of aliveness and ego-death in that moment of total engagement in activity that is also itself the allure of engaging in such activities. But alas, all these are but passing peak experiences since they have not realised anatta. It is not necessary to engage in extraordinary feats to achieve such states of peak experience, the realisation of anatta turns the ordinary and mundane activities of daily living into marvelous activities of buddha-nature and total exertion.

However all these people described above are not just experiencing a 'passive experience of non-doership' -- yet their sense of self is completely dissolved. What's the difference? They're not just 'passively watching things unfold on its own'. Far from merely watching things float by with passive disinterest from behind as some sort of dissociated watcher... They are totally focused, totally in the zone, totally engaged with their whole being/body-mind and their intentions in their action, till the gap between actor and action, doer and deed, observer and observed is refined till none, into that very activity itself. It is like the dissolution of subject/object not just in passively experiencing a sound without hearer or sight without seer, but also in that very full engagement of action without a separate actor. That is true non-action, which is not literally passive inactivity but non-dual action, action without the sense of self, or one's whole being is the action. It is total engagement in action without sense of self, not only without the sense of a doer, but also without the sense of being a passive watcher.

As I said earlier, once realization of anatta arises, non-duality becomes the natural state and is realised to be always already the case. Initially after insight one may still be prone to experiencing non-duality in a state of passivity -- just relaxing and letting the sensory experiences and events just arise in a non-dual state, experiencing no-self in a state of passivity like just enjoying the scenery to the point of completely forgetting the self in the vivid brilliance or luminosity of the scenery, the sounds, the sensations and aromas, etc -- this time it is effortless and natural, without entry or exit -- for one realizes that in seeing, seeing is just colors without seer, and hearing is just sounds without hearer.

And yet mature insight into anatta also allows us the path to completely and gaplessly engage in actions to the point of dissolving all sense of self in that activity. The last stage of the ten oxherding pictures of Zen is called 'entering the marketplace'. The experience of total action/non-action/non-dual action is basically sort of like being in the zone as mentioned above, but the importance is realizing and actualizing this as a natural state in all activities, and that is only possible after realising anatta. After realising anatta (and not just non-doership), it is very natural and effortless to completely engage in activity to the point of leaving no trace of self and fully actualizing your true nature as that very activity. This is heavily emphasized in Zen, but even basic Theravada teachings can get you there if understood well -- https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2012/10/total-exertion_20.html - I discussed a conversation I had with a Zen master and this might interest you.

This non-dual action eventually matures into total exertion, which is emphasized in certain teachings like Soto Zen and Zen Master Dogen. Total exertion is like when you are eating, the whole universe is eating. When you walk, the whole sky and mountains walks with you. At this point, in every mundane experience and activity, you experience the infinitude of the universe exerting as that activity.

Thusness: "[Total] Exertion is after the realization of seamless interdependence, the practitioner feels the universe giving its best to make this moment possible. Read the dogen of rowing the boat."

Dogen: "Birth is just like riding in a boat. You raise the sails, row with the oar, and steer. Although you row, the boat gives you a ride, and without the boat you couldn't ride. But you ride in the boat and your riding makes the boat what it is… When you ride in a boat, your body and mind and the environs together are the undivided activity of the boat. The entire earth and the entire sky are both the undivided activity of the boat."

"With going the boundless sky goes, with coming the entire earth comes. This is everyday mind."

Now, if you mature your insights to the point of true non-action and total exertion, you will not end up in a state of dissociation, passivity and lethargy. Instead, one lives life to its fullest, literally -- in all areas of life, fully alive, fully engaged and yet non-attached.

My impression from your post is that you are experiencing non-doership but with a sense of dissociation, along with some confusion. But if you progress in insights and practice in accordance with the AtR guide, or find a good Zen master (there are many good ones especially from the Soto Zen/Dogen's lineage) that can lead you to total exertion, your problems will be solved. You will come to experience whatever I said in this thread.

As John Tan/Thusness said before:

“When anatta matures, one is fully and completely integrated into whatever arises till there is no difference and no distinction.

When sound arises, fully and completely embraced with sound yet non-attached. Similarly, in life we must be fully engaged yet non-attached” - John Tan/Thusness

“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural [tendency] to explore in [various] arena[s] and enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I [am] involve[d] in Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga...🤣🤣🤣. I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan/Thusness, 2019



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Thusness and I thinks this is good

"The Eight Doha Treasures
A text that clearly teaches the Mahamudra instructions"

https://app.box.com/s/oualei9w0bhw36c2pgnkr2h8iciyb922
[9:28 AM, 4/18/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I explained i am already way past the phase of i amness realisation in spiritual enlightenment


There is no self within, awareness is just right there where everything is (something like that)


I was very expressive in explaining:


In the seeing, just colors

In the hearing, just sound


Best of all i am free

There is no center within and no circumference without


 i also had a plan to explain to him that while i do not see essence in phenomena it does not mean i subsume everything into consciousness


Everything is like a chariot so besides the functioning and aggregation of dependent arising on display an “it” essence cannot be found within or without it


That does not mean therefore everything exists only inside some consciousness or some subjectivity


Nor does an essence reside outside in objectivity to be found


It just means besides these empty dependent aggregation in function/appearance/operation an essence cannot be found


So experientially everything is just very vivid and yet essenceless like a mirage or reflection




[9:34 PM, 4/18/2020] Soh Wei Yu: [quoted a few pages from The Fearless Lion’s Roar: Profound Instructions on Dzogchen, the Great Perfection, on the Four Strayings: “The straying point of emptiness’s having the character of a knowable object, The straying point of taking emptiness as the path, The straying point of taking emptiness as a remedy, The straying point of superimposing emptiness.”] This just reminded me of what A wrote


[9:34 PM, 4/18/2020] Soh Wei Yu: From what A wrote he seems to take emptiness as a remedy

[9:35 PM, 4/18/2020] Soh Wei Yu: This seems intellectual.. rather than directly realising whatever appears as empty clarity



Also, I wrote to A: Taking emptiness as a remedy is different from directly realising whatever appears as empty clarity. Taking emptiness as a remedy, a path, and so on is listed as one of the diversions and strayings in thusness stage 6



[9:38 PM, 4/18/2020] John Tan: Yes.  Whatever appears as empty clarity is the whole purpose the teaching imo.  How do u understand this with DO and emptiness? How does it help?

[10:10 PM, 4/18/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It’s like what i said about the chariot.. whatever appears does not exist in and of itself.. also doesn’t mean nonexistent.. but rather like chariot merely manifest and functions in dependence but ultimately unfindable. Phenomena may be reified as objectively existent before and even after anatta... but if one realises all directly perceivable phenomena is of the nature of being like chariot, essenceless and dependently originating, but not truly originating.. then whatever appears are vividly seen as a self luminous display of total exertion yet empty or free of the sense of existence and nonexistence, arising and ceasing, etc

[10:13 PM, 4/18/2020] John Tan: Yes. From experience, there are 2 effects like I always tell u, one is freeing the mind from essence and substance view, the other is the actual expression of the nature of whatever appears.
"So what is one mind, what is no mind and what is original mind in this context? One mind is post non-dual but subsuming leaving trace. No mind is just one mind except that there is evenness till the last trace is gone. Like what explains in the text. Uji... all is time therefore no time. When you go from dual to non dual or one mind to no mind, those are stages and experiences... If you got the condition to get pointed out that originally there never was a mind, there are no stages to climb... that is original mind. This requires insights and wisdom." - John Tan, 2020

(Note by Soh: the original mind spoken here does not mean some unborn metaphysical primordial mind such as the I AM, but the originally, already-is nature of mind -- empty of itself -- "
originally there never was a mind", empty of all self/Self)

Also see: Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
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[Sent excerpts from a new book about X teacher]
[10:53 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I think still one mind in the end
[10:53 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: What's that?
[10:54 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: X teacher latest book.. i think he went from I AM to nondual in his X experience
[10:55 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: U see, proclamation like no beginning or no ending, no life and no death, no this and no that...all these r useless.
[10:56 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: When we mature our insight and wisdom, we must separate experience and conventional expressions.
[10:57 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: We must train ourselves to understand that we r really talking in a conventional context. What do u mean by no external and internal, no body?
[10:57 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: Ur body is obviously there right?
[10:58 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: When u say u can feel ur body anymore, what do u mean by that? It is an experience...what exactly happened?
[10:59 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: In mind body dropped, in concentration, what happened actually? For the experience that the body disappears?
[11:00 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: So it can b an experience or it can be an insight in emptiness.
[11:00 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. so his is more like experience right
[11:00 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No mind
[11:00 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But still seeing i amness as ultimate reality
[11:02 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: That is not important, the importance is whether it is an experience or is it an insight. That we clearly through the causes and the conditions of the arising phenomena.
[11:03 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: Otherwise it is just confusion under the same karmic influence of seeing essence and entities.
[11:06 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: U can have an experience of I Mness, u can have an experience of mind body dropped. But that is different from seeing through mind and seeing through body and the experiences that come with such insight.
[11:07 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[11:07 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah my impression is that his is more on experience.. no mind experience but one mind view
[11:07 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But he talks about emptiness view
[11:07 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: In earlier chapter. Just cant seem to have the direct insight of anatta
[Sent excerpts from X teacher about emptiness view]
[11:07 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: He said X
[11:19 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: He seems to turn emptiness into a ground
[11:23 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: There r two. This is like what Greg said. Mistaking emptiness as Awareness esp when someone experiences I M.
The other is seeing through mental constructs and conventions, releasing first the background then the foreground, experiences turn not only non-dual but illusion, without beginning or ending.
[11:26 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: Yeah but is emptiness teaching a mere teaching of disassociation from phenomena into non-dual witnessing?
[11:27 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No, one must also realise the emptiness of awareness
[11:30 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: I do not know about dzogchen [comments by Soh: Dzogchen teacher Prabodha Yogi and Abhaya Devi seems clear about no mind/no mirror] but in Zen it is clear. However although Zen is about no mind 无心, the view about it may not b clear as experience that priority over view.
[11:30 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: Takes priority
[11:31 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Mahamudra leh
[11:32 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: It took me some time to appreciate the teaching of emptiness post my anatta insight...it is actually a very gradual process...I like mahamudra.
[11:32 AM, 4/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I dont think X teacher see through background
[11:33 AM, 4/10/2020] John Tan: Means the integration of my anatta insight and seeing it from emptiness teaching perspective. Only then we realize how much more "solidity" the mind still hold..