Two persons realised anatta recently in AtR group:

Jayson MPaul shared:
Shared with Members of Awakening to Reality
Hello friends. I have been reading the blog for a few years now. It was suggested to me back in 2017 on the DhO, but I wasn't ready for it. Looking back I was definitely in stage 1 and I can trace my way through the first 4 stages. Something dawned on me 2 days ago and all things became unstuck. It became clear to me that every moment is just the thoughts, scenery, sounds. Nothing has ever been obscured! I was trying to find what I was missing but then it dawned that I was missing the fact that "searching for what was missing" is also just thought, sensation, manifestation. I still very subtly believed I was a non-dual awareness having a non-dual experience. I was trying to expand awareness to include more and more sensations. The size isn't the problem, it is realizing that there isn't anything more than just this and digging up subtler and subtler views that support this reification of awareness as a formless thing or ground of all experience. The last couple days have been effortlessly no-mind because all experiences are and always were no-mind. Finally most of the words on your blog speak to my direct experience. Thank you for the pointers! 🙏

Td Unmanifest shared:

Shared with Members of Awakening to Reality
Soh Wei Yu suggested I post something about my experience after our email conversation.
I emailed to thank him and John Tan for their writings, resources, and pointers that have helped me immensely in my progress.
Many years ago I had a powerful, "accidental" I Am experience that compelled me to search for what it was and how to make it permanent. Over the years I have explored many teachers, practices, systems, and techniques. Some more helpful than others.
I actually encountered AtR several years ago via a DhO post, but honestly aside from some of the I Am posts and discussions, none of it made much sense to me. I now know that's due to the fact I was stuck in the I Am phase, yet I thought I was much further along in my progress.
Earlier this year, I rediscovered AtR, and began to read and study the Journal and Guide, along with the associated posts. It all was much clearer to me this time -- maybe I was more ripe for the teachings now 🙂
Realizing I had been stuck in I Am, I followed the recommendations from the guide. The contemplation of "where awareness ends and manifestation begins" was especially helpful and propelled me into a nondual realization. It was all very clear. The luminosity and clarity, descriptions, and experience, all lined up with what was written. It was extremely helpful to have my insights and experiences line up with writings from someone who had been down the path. The insight/shift from no-mind, to anatta was the most powerful, yet ordinary thing. As I said in my email to Soh Wei Yu:
Though the earlier anatta experience shifted to a "no center, no background" emptiness of no-self, there was still a sense of a doer. This current shift/experience has left the doer and the "agencylessness" seems the default view.
Dogen's Uji, and the insights of being-time have also been very powerful for me, along with Tozen's "place where there is no cold or heat," which was recommended by Soh Wei Yu. It's amazing how the suttas and teachers make so much sense now and help clarify and stabilize realization and insight.
Just writing this short post, it's difficult to describe these insights. It makes me appreciate how well the AtR team and other teachers have been able to describe and present the material in a clear way.

Labels: 0 comments | | edit post

“[3:29 PM, 6/25/2020] John Tan: Thought of how to explain the difference in anatta and advaita nihilism.

[3:40 PM, 6/25/2020] John Tan: When a person in ignorance, why is he so blinded? If there is no I, shouldn't him be already free?


Sentient being: if there is no I in ignorance, then you are therefore free.


Anatta: There is no I in ignorance, you are precisely THAT ignorance, therefore fully and entirely blinded.


What anatta insight is telling us is the "I" and "ignorance" are the same phenomenon. This also tells us that even when in ignorant, there is complete and effortless non-dual experience, anatta is a seal.



[2:52 PM, 6/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The Beauty of Virtue


Thought  is  movement  between  “what  is”  and  “what  should  be.”  Thought  is  the  time  to  cover  that  space,  and  as  long  as  there  is  division  between  this  and  that  psychologically,  the  movement  is  the  time  of  thought.  So  thought  is  time  as  movement. Is there time as movement, as thought, when there is only observation of “what is”? That is, not observation as the observer and the observed, but only observation  without  the  movement  of  going  beyond  “what  is.”  It  is  very  important  for  the  mind  to  understand  this,  because  thought  can  create  most  marvelous images of what is sacred and holy, which all religions have done. All religions  are  based  on  thought.  All  religions  are  the  organization  of  thought,  in  belief, in dogma, in rituals. So unless there is complete understanding of thought as time and movement, the mind cannot possibly go beyond itself.


We  are  trained,  educated,  drilled  to  change  “what  is”  into  “what  should  be,”  the  ideal,  and  that  takes  time.  That  whole  movement  of  thought  to  cover  the  space  between  “what  is”  and  “what  should  be”  is  the  time  to  change  “what  is”  into  “what  should  be”—but  the  observer  is  the  observed,  therefore  there  is  nothing to change, there is only “what is.” The observer doesn’t know what to do with  “what  is,”  therefore  he  tries  various  methods  to  change  “what  is,”  controls  “what is,” tries to suppress “what is.” But the observer is the observed: the “what is”  is  the  observer.  Anger,  jealousy,  are  also  the  observer;  there  isn’t  jealousy  separate  from  the  observer—both  are  one.  When  there  is  no  movement  as  thought  in  time  to  change  “what  is,”  when  thought  perceives  that  there  is  no  possibility of changing “what is,” then that which is—“what is”—ceases entirely, because the observer is the observed.


Go  into  this  very  deeply  and  you  will  see  for  yourself.  It  is  really  quite  simple.  If  I  dislike  someone,  the  dislike  is  not  different  from  the  “me”  or  the  “you.”  The  entity  that  dislikes  is  dislike  itself;  it  is  not  separate.  And  when  thought  says,  “I  must  get  over  my  dislike,”  then  it  is  movement  in  time  to  get  over  that  which  actually  is,  which  is  created  by  thought.  So  the  observer—the  entity—and  the  thing  called  “dislike”  are  the  same.  Therefore  there  is  complete  immobility. It is not the immobility of being static, it is complete motionlessness and therefore complete silence. So time as movement, time as thought achieving a result, has come totally to an end, and therefore action is instantaneous. So the mind has laid the foundation and is free from disorder; and therefore there is the flowering and the beauty of virtue. In that foundation is the basis of relationship between you and another. In that relationship there is no activity of image; there is  only  relationship,  not  one  image  adjusting  itself  to  the  other  image.  There  is  only “what is” and not the changing of “what is.” The changing of “what is,” or transforming of “what is,” is the movement of thought in time.


When you have come to that point, the mind and the brain cells also become totally  still.  The  brain  which  holds  memories,  experience,  knowledge,  can  and  must  function  in  the  field  of  the  known.  But  now  that  mind,  that  brain,  is  free  from the activity of time and thought. Then the mind is completely still. All this takes  place  without  effort.  All  this  must  take  place  without  any  sense  of  discipline, control, which belong to disorder.


You  know,  what  we  are  saying  is  totally  different  from  what  the  gurus,  the  “masters,” the Zen philosophers say, because in this there is no authority, there is no  following  another.  If  you  follow  somebody,  you  are  not  only  destroying  yourself but also the other. A religious mind has no authority whatsoever. But it has intelligence and it applies that intelligence. In the world of action there is the authority of the scientist, the doctor, the man who teaches you how to drive, but otherwise there is no authority, there is no guru.


So, if you have gone as deeply as that, then the mind has established order in relationship, and understands the whole complex disorder of our daily lives. Out of the comprehension of that disorder, out of the awareness of it, in which there is  no  choice,  comes  the  beauty  of  virtue,  which  is  not  cultivated,  which  is  not  brought  about  by  thought.  That  virtue  is  love,  order,  and  if  the  mind  has  established  that  with  deep  roots,  it  is  immovable,  unchangeable.  And  then  you  can inquire into the whole movement of time. Then the mind is completely still. There is no observer, there is no experiencer, there is no thinker.


There    are    various    forms    of    sensory    and    extrasensory    perception.    Clairvoyance,  healing,  all  kinds  of  things  take  place,  but  they  are  all  secondary,  and  a  mind  that  is  really  concerned  with  the  discovery  of  what  is  truth,  what  is  sacred, will never touch them.


The  mind  then  is  free  to  observe.  Then  there  is  that  which  man  has  sought  through   centuries,   the   unnameable,   the   timeless.   And   there   is   no   verbal   expression  of  it.  The  image  that  is  created  by  thought  completely  and  utterly  ceases because there is no entity that wants to express it in words. Your mind can only  discover  it,  or  come  upon  it,  when  you  have  this  strange  thing  called  love,  compassion,  not  only  for  your  neighbor,  but  for  the  animals,  the  trees,  for  everything.


Then such a mind itself becomes sacred.

 ~ J Krishnamurti, 'This Light in Oneself: True Meditation'

[2:53 PM, 6/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: reminds me of what you said 'you are the ignorance'

[6:52 AM, 6/28/2020] John Tan: Yes”
[10:40 PM, 7/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu:
[10:40 PM, 7/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Nice talk by alan watts on net of indra and total exertion
[10:53 PM, 7/2/2020] John Tan: Yes very good... Like the success
[11:24 PM, 7/2/2020] John Tan: Because we r so used to seeing and understanding from a truly objective world excluding consciousness from the equation or a subsuming consciousness which is just the other end of the pole.

Similarly, we may think that we have to "get out" of conventionalities and be non-conceptual, non-dual, non-local and live in vivid vibrancy prior to separation.

We think that the conventional world and the non-dual, non-conceptual must b mutually exclusive.

What is the sound of one hand clapping in a fully and completely engaged conventional world?

When u move not a single step away from concepts and names, conventions and forms, what is that taste of one hand clapping like? Can u identify it?
[11:28 PM, 7/2/2020] John Tan: But that is not to tell u to keep engaging in conceptual
[11:44 PM, 7/2/2020] John Tan: Sound makes ear, the ear and the ear makes sound, the sound.  No sound, no ear. Neither prior nor after.
This u understand.

But what about Dogen hits a bell, soh hears it? How intimate and how deep have u embraced it?

[11:47 AM, 7/3/2020] John Tan: There r at least 5 phases of total exertion.  Each is a deepening.
[12:27 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: As for the deconstruction process via total exertion, a more effective way will b contemplating the ayatanas (Soh: See and consciousness sort of deconstruction..

As I told you the insight trigger from  "hearer hearing sound" and "ear, sound, ear-consciousness" are different.  Also  "ear, sound, ear-consciousness" imo is post anatta into phenomena and action.

[12:28 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. but ear sound ear consciousness is before deconstruction of ear and sound into total exertion right
[12:34 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Post anatta, you are left with sound.  When you look at sound from "ear, sound, ear-consciousness" we are led to total exertion.
[12:38 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: But before you talk about total exertion let's look at fluxing...

Buddha named consciousness after its ayatanas. This is to prevent us from abstracting and reifying a pure self standing consciousness. In other words, consciousness is in a perpetual state of fluxing and if you where to slice a moment out of this stream of consciousness-ing, it is always one of the six types of consciousness -- eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness and mental-consciousness.
[12:40 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[12:41 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Now what is that ear-consciousness?
[12:42 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Cannot be spoken besides in relation to ear and sound.. it is just that sound in relation to ear, manifesting that sound consciousness
[12:51 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Yes. If I were to hit a bell with a stick and produce a "tingssss" sound...where and what is that "tingss"?

Is it in the stick, the bell, the air, the vibration of the air, the ear canal, the eardrum?

Also is that "tingss" produced?  Is it caused?
[12:53 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: And if you take out a part of the conditions, is there still "tingss" at that moment?
[12:54 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No
[12:55 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It is relational but not produced or caused
[1:00 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: The conventional world is populated with discrete separated objects as the mind sees in bits and pieces and languages play a role in enforcing the hoax of separations.

We link these separated objects and say this causes that.  We must see through all these symbols and names constructs and cause and effect issues, not just no-self.
[1:08 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: When you say no? are you able to see how and y it is "no"?  Like choosing, without all its parts, is it still that choosing?

When you flip a coin, can you flip the head without flipping the tail? When you flip the head, you are at the same time flipping the tail.  So can the tail choose not to be flipped?

When we say sensation, sensation is always the sensation of something.  Can there b sensation without an object? And we say sensation is not free from that something?
[1:20 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. yeah.. nothing can be found besides those relations. Sensation of heat cannot be found to reside somewhere besides the exertion of hand grasping on the cup and the hot coffee, etc etc.. Therefore unproduced, not inherent production or cause and effect... If produced then it could exist apart from those relations. Choosing also cannot be found besides the relations which volition plays an important role.. volition etc too is dependently originating. It is not determinism which is a kind of fixed view of inherent production, just dependent origination
[1:27 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Choosing is dependent on choosable objects, the subjective mental factors which includes ignorance, afflictions, habits, or conversely wisdom, mindfulness, willpower, external influences, internal rational reasoning, etc etc.. all those factors exerting in the activity of choosing
[1:27 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: It is not exactly important how words are being replaced but what exactly is "uprooted" from the process of decosntruction.  It must lift the veil of "production" and separation, entity and it's characteristics to understand the vivid vibrancy of that "tingss"...

So there can be a direct pointing that enables one to taste without intermediary beyond names and forms of that "tingsss", a non-dual, non-local or total exerted experience, but that does not mean the intellectual blindspot is uprooted.

There can also b clear understanding of intellectually but somehow the blindspot is not lifted and a second pointing into the taste of clarity is needed.
[1:30 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: So direct experience is one thing, clearly seeing through and uprooting of the blindspots is altogether another question.
[1:40 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[1:42 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: When I say soh is very successful, a damn good programmer.  So when you look at "success" and see through this label, what did you see?
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Just suddenly successful?🤣🤣🤣
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No.. years of gaining experience etc
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Tell me more
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Everything ...
[1:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Go into it...
[1:46 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It includes learning from teachers, working with others, learning from failures and mistakes, continually refining knowledge and learning, and experience, hmm... actually cannot finish listing all the factors lol..
[1:47 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Yes...that includes coding ten of thousands of lines of codes, many sleepless nights, continual refining ones logic...etc
[1:48 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: All of these all is being exerted into soh as a good programmer here and now...
[1:49 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: So success is designated based on these conditions
[1:55 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: So soh that is here and now and the whole exertion, what is the difference?
[1:59 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No difference
[2:10 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: No difference how come?
[2:13 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Here and now is just another designation... cannot be found besides the whole exertion of ten directions and three times.. just like consciousness is named and designated after conditions
[2:37 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: Similarly, when you studying an object A, you will soon find that you are not just studying the object itself, you are at the same time studying it's environment, it's conditions...until the line between the thing you study and it's environment and conditions become a blur...until the boundaries and the divisions dissapears ... What can you realize from that?
[2:54 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: To study something is to study the relations and exertion of everything involved

Reminds me of dogen..

To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.
[3:14 PM, 6/24/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Also dependent designations.. everything is dependent designations
[3:43 PM, 6/24/2020] John Tan: The Soh that is here and now and the whole exertion are not two different phenomena.  The splitting up creates the impression as if they can be separated. As if you can choose some part and still retain the same successful Soh at the moment.  We also create a cause and effect relationship as if Soh that is here and now is a puppet that can't do anything.  

Like the head and tail of a coin, they are two aspects of the same coin. The mind that sees the bits and pieces and the language creates an alienated experience and confusions.

All these deconstructions and uprooting of blindspots are to allow the full and total experience of the sound "tingss". Each moment is also the dynamic total participation of the entire situation of the three times.

So in the total exertion of that "tingss", there is no outside, no inside, therefore nothing to cause, no conditions, no self, no arising, no ceasing.  Effortless, boundless, immense, vibrantly alive and free.