Sent to someone,

"as for the question of how rebirth can take place without soul, this is a commonly asked question, I just posted this a week ago to Geovani:


Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Disjoint and unconnected in the sense that there is no underlying substratum and linking agent that is carried on or persisting from from moment to moment. It is not disjoint and unconnected in the sense of negating interdependencies.

Like if you have a sense that "last thought came, this thought arrived, next thought arriving, but I AM constant throughout, or the NOW is unmoved throughout" that is not being 'disjoint and unsupported'.

But even though they are disjoint and unsupported and groundless by nature, unproduced by any linking agent, one must further penetrate into the total exertion of that disjointed thought/sensation/experience. Then furthermore, one may see the karmic conditions in play (this is completely missed out by the neo-Advaitin circles):

As Thusness wrote before,

This arising thought and previous thought, are they same or different?
This arising thought and previous thought, are they dependent or completely independent?

Beyond the extremes, see the middle path of dependent origination.

...

penetrate deeply into the following aspects:
1. The amazing power of the spell of an arising thought
Clearly understand the power and implications of this arising thought. It is the mystery of all mysteries. When this arising thought sees dualistically and inherent, everything appears infinitely separated and apart. That is all that matters.

2. Look deeply into the cause of suffering as a result of dualistic and inherent thought rather than thought self liberates, penetrate the ‘cause and conditions’ of suffering.

When an arising thought see dualistically, how the entire experience is shaped.

When an arising thought sees inherently, how the entire experience has changed.

With this as the cause, what happens, with the absence of that, what happens.

3. There is no willing off of dualistic and inherent thought, that would be self-view. If there is no doership, is overcoming possible?

From this understand, an arising thought is not just an arising thought, but the total exertion and entire chain of conditionality is in action. Clearly understand the difference between self-view and principle of conditionality with direct experience. The overcoming is not by way of self-view approach but by understanding the principle of conditionality.)
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu As Thusness wrote in 2014: "If we continue to look for the carrying medium between 2 moment of thoughts, profound insight of anatta will not arise and non-locality will not dawn. Our mode of perception will be obscured by the inherent way of understanding things."

This also relates to many people asking the question of rebirth, since rebirth is taught by Buddha. In Hinduism the jivas (souls) are the medium which persists after death and reincarnates, until they are fully absorbed into and dissolved into Brahman through Self-Realization. But if in Buddhism there is no soul, no self/Self whatsoever, what is it that is reborn, if there is no 'carrying medium'?

Actually it's just action, tendencies, and the manifestation/reactions of these action (karma) and tendencies, both from moment to moment and life after life. It's no different from how rebirth is taking place moment by moment even in this lifetime.

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../emptiness-and...

Continuing consciousness after death is, in most religions, a matter of revealed truth. In Buddhism, the evidence comes from the contemplative experience of people who are certainly not ordinary but who are sufficiently numerous that what they say about it is worth taking seriously into account. Indeed, such testimonies begin with those of the Buddha himself.

Nevertheless, it’s important to understand that what’s called reincarnation in Buddhism has nothing to do with the transmigration of some ‘entity’ or other. It’s not a process of metempsychosis because there is no ‘soul’. As long as one thinks in terms of entities rather than function and continuity, it’s impossible to understand the Buddhist concept of rebirth. As it’s said, ‘There is no thread passing through the beads of the necklace of rebirths.’ Over successive rebirths, what is maintained is not the identity of a ‘person’, but the conditioning of a stream of consciousness.

Additionally, Buddhism speaks of successive states of existence; in other words, everything isn’t limited to just one lifetime. We’ve experienced other states of existence before our birth in this lifetime, and we’ll experience others after death. This, of course, leads to a fundamental question: is there a nonmaterial consciousness distinct from the body? It would be virtually impossible to talk about reincarnation without first examining the relationship between body and mind. Moreover, since Buddhism denies the existence of any self that could be seen as a separate entity capable of transmigrating from one existence to another by passing from one body to another, one might well wonder what it could be that links those successive states of existence together.

One could possibly understand it better by considering it as a continuum, a stream of consciousness that continues to flow without there being any fixed or autonomous entity running through it… Rather it could be likened to a river without a boat, or to a lamp flame that lights a second lamp, which in-turn lights a third lamp, and so on and so forth; the flame at the end of the process is neither the same flame as at the outset, nor a completely different one…
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awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Emptiness and the Middle Way
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu In the //Milindapanha// the King asks Nagasena:

"What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"

"A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."

"But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical

combination as this present one?"

"No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces

kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and

through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be

born."

Visuddhimagga// :

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."

Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple

sees only mental and corporeal phenomena kept going through the

concatenation of causes and effects. No producer of the

volitional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma, no

recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result. And he is

well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language,

when, with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or

with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the

result.

No doer of the deeds is found,

No one who ever reaps their fruits;

Empty phenomena roll on:

This only is the correct view.

And while the deeds and their results

Roll on and on, conditioned all,

There is no first beginning found,

Just as it is with seed and tree. ...

No god, no Brahma, can be called

The maker of this wheel of life:

Empty phenomena roll on,

Dependent on conditions all.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu There's a relevant post that Malcolm just wrote.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=30102...

Seeker12 wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:54 am
Link Here : http://www.lotsawahouse.org/.../heart-dependent-origination

In verse 6, he says,

"Then, as for extremely subtle entities,
Those who regard them with nihilism,
Lacking precise and thorough knowledge,
Will not see the actuality of conditioned arising."

Can anyone explain this a bit? What is being referred to as extremely subtle entities that may be regarded with nihilism, lacking precise and thorough knowledge?

Thank you for input.

Malcolm wrote:

The extremely subtle existents are particles, paramanus.

A more precise translation would be:

Although the aggregates are serially connected,
the wise are to comprehend nothing transfers.
Someone, having conceived of annihilation,
even in extremely subtle existents,
is not wise,
and will never see the meaning of ‘arisen from conditions’.

The auto commentary states with respect to this:

Therein, the aggregates are the aggregates of matter, sensation, perception, formations and consciousness. Those, called ‘serially joined’, not having ceased, produce another produced from that cause; although not even the subtle particle of an existent has transmigrated from this world to the next.

The purpose of this is to point out that even though nothing transfers from this life to the next, the assertion that even a subtle particle is annihilated is false. Why? Because in Madhyamaka causes and effects are neither the same nor different.
Manage
dharmawheel.net
Question about Nagarjuna's Heart of Dependent…
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Verses on the Heart of Dependent Origination

by Ārya Nāgārjuna

In the language of India: pratītyasamutpāda hṛdaya kārikā

In the language of Tibet:
རྟེན་ཅིང་འབྲེལ་པར་འབྱུང་བའི་སྙིང་པོའི་ཚིག་ལེའུར་བྱས་པ།, (rten cing 'brel par 'byung ba'i snying po tshig le'ur byas pa)

Homage to Mañjuśrī, the Youthful!

These different links, twelve in number,
Which Buddha taught as dependent origination,
Can be summarized in three categories:
Mental afflictions, karma and suffering.

The first, eighth and ninth are afflictions,
The second and tenth are karma,
The remaining seven are suffering.
Thus the twelve links are grouped in three.

From the three the two originate,
And from the two the seven come,
From seven the three come once again—
Thus the wheel of existence turns and turns.

All beings consist of causes and effects,
In which there is no ‘sentient being’ at all.
From phenomena which are exclusively empty,
There arise only empty phenomena.
All things are devoid of any ‘I’ or ‘mine’.

Like a recitation, a candle, a mirror, a seal,
A magnifying glass, a seed, sourness, or a sound,
So also with the continuation of the aggregates—
The wise should know they are not transferred.

Then, as for extremely subtle entities,
Those who regard them with nihilism,
Lacking precise and thorough knowledge,
Will not see the actuality of conditioned arising.

In this, there is not a thing to be removed,
Nor the slightest thing to be added.
It is looking perfectly into reality itself,
And when reality is seen, complete liberation.

This concludes the verses on ‘The Heart of Dependent Origination’ composed by the teacher Ārya Nāgārjuna.

| Translated by Adam Pearcey, 2008.
.....
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

The shop is playing jing kong fa shi vcd
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

He talls about an unborn undying ling xing - spirit
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

That which reborns in six realms he says is not the body but the ling xing spirit
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

It is that which goes to pure land
Soh Wei YuSaturday, December 21, 2013 at 3:39pm UTC+08

Haha
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:33am UTC+08

His view is more substantial view.
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:36am UTC+08

Buddhism does not deny luminous clarity, in fact it is to hv total, uncontrieved, direct non-referential of clarity in all moments...therefore no-self apart from manifestation.
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:36am UTC+08

Otherwise one is only holding ghost images.
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:39am UTC+08

So understanding a spirit traveling in the 6 realms is diff from recognizing these realms are nothing more than one's radiance clarity.
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:41am UTC+08

Yea
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:41am UTC+08

Told truth that before as well cos he asked
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 10:56am UTC+08

Abt Jing Kong Fa Shi?
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:01am UTC+08

I see..
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:02am UTC+08

Yeah truth thinks jing kong fa shi is misleading people and is working for mara lol
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:02am UTC+08

He was once a follower of Jing Kong right?
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:02am UTC+08

I told him jing kong is speaking from I AM persprctive and one mind. So he sees one god in all religion and he says brahman in Hindu is same as buddhism buddha nature
Soh Wei YuSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:03am UTC+08

Dont think so
John TanSunday, December 22, 2013 at 11:03am UTC+08

Ic.
....
as to what happens after death, there's the interesting text called bardo thodol by padmasambhava in the tibetan buddhism and dzogchen tradition - a very good text that resonates much, and it talks about the stages of bardo/after life, where the first phase is the shutting of all senses and gross concepts are dissolved and one is being absorbed into the formless clear light, even for only a short moment. this is actually rather similar to the I AM experience. but one will usually fail to recognise its true nature, so that moment passes as a mere glimpse or experience without true recognition and the next phase of bardo begins. following that, one sees all kinds of visions. in each phase there is the possibility to liberate (and the teacher beside the dying will recite the bardo thodol verses in order to 'remind' or 'introduce' the dying/dead/transitioning to the nature of mind in whatever is appearing), by recognising whatever appears or is experienced as one's empty-radiance, in other words one instantly liberates on the spot the reification of 'self' and 'phenomena', 'subject' and 'object' by recognizing the empty and luminous nature of mind/display


also thusness wrote in 2008:

Hi Longchen,
Must be having a challenging time sustaining the vivid presence of non-dual experience.  Just to share with you some of my thoughts:
When we die, the thoughts and emotions that are karmically linked to the body are temporarily suspended.  The contrast in experience that resulted from the dissolution of the ‘bond of a body’ gives rise to a more vivid experience of Presence; although the experience of Presence is there, the insight into its non-dual essence and emptiness nature isn’t there.  This is similar to the experience of “I AM”.  Thoughts and emotions will continue to arise and subside with the bond of ‘I’ and ‘Mine’ after death. 
Awareness is always non-dual and all pervading; obscured but not lost.  In essence all manifestation, transient (emotions, thoughts or feelings) is really the manifold of Presence.  They have the same non-dual essence and empty nature.  All problems lie not at the manifestation level but at the fundamental level.  Deep in us we see things inherently and dualistically.  How the experience of Presence can be distorted with the ‘bond’ of dualistic and inherent seeing maybe loosely categorized as:
1. There is a mirror reflecting dust. (“I AM”)    
     Mirror bright is experienced but distorted.  Dualistic and Inherent seeing.
2. Dust is required for the mirror to see itself.
    Non-Dualistic but Inherent seeing.  (Beginning of non-dual insight)
3. Dust has always been the mirror ( The mirror here is seen as a whole)
   Non-Dualistic and non- inherent insight.
In 3, whatever comes and goes is the Rigpa itself.  There is no Rigpa other than that.  All along there is no dust really, only when a particular speck of dust claims that it is the purest and truest state then immediately all other arising which from beginning are self- mirroring become dust.

.....

Originally posted by longchen: (in 2008)
Hi Friend,
Just my understanding only. For discussion sake. Also, I find this topic very interesting.
What appears to us are registered by all the sense organs. The eye sight sees some thing, the ears hear something, etc ,etc. There are not happening in some place. They are the arising of certain conditions.
To illustrate that what we experience is not standardised, we know that human beings see in term of colour range. Some animals are colour-blind. so they see differently. But none of us, is seeing the truth nature directly. The senses of different species of sentient beings experience things differently.
Likewise, the 31 planes of existence are due to different conditions arising. In the jhana meditation, one is said to be able to access these planes of existence. This is because they are not specific locations. They are mental states. In the jhanas, our consciousness changes and 'aligned' more with these other states or planes of existence.
All the planes of existence are simultaneously manifesting, but because our senses are human-based conditioned arisings, we only see the human world and other beings that shared 'similar' resonating arising conditions. But nevertheless, the other planes of existences are not elsewhere in some other places.
What we think of as places are really just consciousness. .. no solidity whatsoever. Even our touch sense is just that. It gives an impression of feeling something 3D with textures and so on so forth. But there is no solid self-existing object there... it is simply the sensation that gives the impression of solidity.


Thusness:

Hi Longchen,
I can see the synchronization of emptiness view into your non-dual experiences --. Integrating view, practice and experience. This is the essence of our emptiness nature and right understanding of non-dual experience in Buddhism that is different from Advaita Vedanta teaching. This is also the understanding of why Everything is the One Reality incorporating causes, conditions and luminosity of our Empty nature as One and inseparable. Everything as the One Reality should never be understood from a dualistic/inherent standpoint.
This also explains the nature of 'supernatural power' like clairvoyance and seeing things far away, etc.
Indeed! You can see the how the view, practice and experience leading to the understanding of non-locality in terms of views, practices and experience.

Stage 6. The nature of Presence is Empty
Not only is there no ‘who’ in pristine awareness, there is no ‘where’ and ‘when’. This is its nature.
When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
-- the principle of conditionality
The self-luminous awareness from beginning-less time has never been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where to be found. This is the emptiness nature of Presence.


Forum Topic: Will the soul leaves one when one meditate
Thusness: 20 May 2006 · 10:02 AM

From a conventional point of view, it is. If we feel, see, hear and think in terms of ‘entity’, then it seems that there is a ‘self’ leaving the body. This is because all along, we experience all phenomenon appearances as ‘solid things’ existing independently. Such conventional mode of comprehending our meditative experiences masked the true character of these experiences.

If we treat consciousness to be an atomic-like-particle residing in our body somewhere, then we are making it as a self too. Do not do that. The true character of Consciousness is not a thing, it does not enter, leave, reside within or outside the body. Clear Luminosity is bonded by karmic propensities, causes and conditions. There is no need for a place ‘within’. Yes, there is a ‘mental phenomenon’ arising but the sensation of ‘entering’ and ‘leaving’ is the result of associating it with a ‘self’. Just like it is illusionary to see a ‘self’ succeeding from moment to moment, an ‘entrance’ and ‘exit’ is equally illusionary.

Mystical experiences are extremely crucial during the journey of enlightenment. Do not discard them unwisely but assign them correct places. These experiences loosen karmic bonds that latent deep down in our consciousness where it is almost impossible to break through ordinary means. It is an essential condition for the awakening of penetrating insight. The main different between non Buddhist and Buddhist practitioners is that transcendental and mystical experiences are not molded into a ‘self’ but correctly understood and purified with the wisdom of emptiness. This applies true to the Luminous Clarity Knowingness that is non-dual, it is not wrongly personified into Brahman. In perfect clarity, there are no praises for radiance bright, only the Dharma is in sight. The wisdom of emptiness is so deep and profound that even if one has entered the realm of non-dual, he/she will still not be able to grasp its essence in full. This is the wisdom of the Blessed One. The second level of Presence.




---------------------------

Thusness: 06 July 2006 · 10:01 AM

Interesting site...

In most religions and mystical path, the dissolving of the 'Self' is necessary for the experience of the divine. The 'self' is always experienced as the ultimate block that prevents one from experiencing the transcendental. Glimpses of the beyond arise when we are able to go beyond labels and concepts.

I respect her experience but would just like to add some comments:

On the experience of “AMness”:
The key when the ‘I’ drops away lies in “fusing into everything”. Without this experience, it is still resting in “I AM”, there is no breakthrough. Even with the experience of “fusing into all things”, it remains as a stage having an entry and exit point. To experience pathless that is without entry and exit point is where the doctrine of anatta and emptiness steps in.

On the unchanging self:
quote:

It is strange that when people want to know their real self, they start looking at relative bunches of ever changing concepts. Reality is that which underlies relativity. Reality is unchanging.
We must ask ourselves: “What is the only unchanging reality of our life? What is the only phenomenon that has never changed since we were born?”
The answer can readily be experienced when we close our eyes and go introspective. It is our sense of BEING. Our I AM-ness. Everybody can always experience the sense that they exist. That inner sense never changes and is there if we are happy, angry, sad, drunk,- whatever. Further, it cannot be localized within any part of the body. It is limitless and experienced by everyone the same way. It is infinite REALITY!


When observing moment to moment changes, it is almost natural to conclude this way. There must be an unchanging observer observing change is a logical deduction. It is the result of the lightning flash changes, logical deduction and memories that create the impression of an unchanging entity. There is continuity, but continuity with an unchanging entity is not necessary.

On feeling lightness and experiencing ‘astral traveling’:
quote:

My own experience is that the density of the body seems to change. Years ago I experienced the phenomena of ‘astral traveling.’ During this experience you have the feeling of leaving the coarser body and floating. At some stage you have to return to the body, and the feeling is not very pleasant. You are going from a feeling of freedom and ‘lightness’ back into what feels like cold, dense, clay. This ‘clay’ is the collective emotions, experiences, and holding of the body. After some AMness has fallen away, the body feels lighter and less dense. You just keep feeling lighter and freer.


The “density” and “lightness” is the weight of “losing her identification with certain aspect of the self”. The power of this “identification” cannot be underestimated.
Next is her experience of ‘astral traveling’, if she is in a stage of absorption and then out of a sudden awareness, the eyes of awareness may allow her to witness something that is altogether different from the physical place but this does not necessary mean that ‘consciousness’ has left and re-enter the body. Consciousness is propelled by causes and conditions. According to her conditions of absorption and clarity, just IS.

But then everyone has their own experiences. Just my 2 cents.

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