LeanderThanks for all the answers, it means a lot to me and makes it a lot more bearable already.

@An Eternal Now: ive read the first link. Suzanne Segals story and the two types of nondual contemplation after I AM.
i have to admit that just reading the contemplation spikes some panic in me because it implys i have to go further into no-mans land. Things like "theres no seer, just seeing". it makes me feel even less existent. As if thats the missing nail in the coffin to destroy me once and for all.


Fear and panic arises due to the misconception that 'I' have existed in the first place and has to dissolve. This is a misunderstanding. There is no 'I' behind the seeing which is none other than colors, no 'I' or 'hearer' that is behind the hearing which is none other than sounds. Nothing needs to dissolve, it is seen through and realized to be always already the case. You think that hearing and seeing is the job of an agent, a perceiver, a doer, and you are some detached perceiver, but in reality scenery sees and sound hears. The agent never was. It only appears to be real, and while the delusion is there, the appearance is very strong and hypnotic. There is a constant self-refencing, a tiresome and tedious process of referencing every experience back to a presumed agent out of ignorance, from 'just the seen' to 'I see'. The seeing/colors, hearing/sounds, action/activity happen first, followed by an unnecessary self-referencing to an imaginary agent. This sense of being a self, an agent, a perceiver, a doer, can however be challenged, investigated, and seen through. With the illusion seen through, the process of self-making naturally stops, it is not so much that a self is destroyed as it was never truly there. Nothing is lost, and in losing an illusion you 'gain' the world.

The old Zen koan goes:

The man sitting atop the hundred foot pole:
Though he's gained entry, this is not yet the real.
Atop the hundred foot pole, he should step forward:
The universe in all directions is the whole body.

Nothing is destroyed any more than seeing through the belief in the real existence of santa claus actually destroys some santa claus. You just wake up to reality. Oh, life is happening brilliantly without a center, without the need for the fiction of a center, and life is much more marvellous, wondrous, alive, boundless and free than the tiresome and fearful holding and grasping on to an unnecessary self-contraction and imagined entity and all the related sufferings. It's like holding on to hot charcoal and yet strangely not willing to release it due to fear of the unknown. Once the illusion is seen through and released there is a sense of freedom, release and fearlessness in facing life (see: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/08/fearless-samadhi.html )

Then there is no fear as this is realized to be always already the case. The notion that 'I' had existed at the center, experiencing and coordinating everything is unnecessary and unfounded. The absence of self and agent is also experienced positively as everything is brilliantly alive and self-luminous, the quality of 'witnessing' which was once seen as a background observer now is felt as a quality of everything revealing itself to itself. The seeing is seen-seeing, colors and sounds and sensations are just felt vividly where they are instead of being experienced from some vantagepoint of self. It is not a static state of detached uninvolvement in life, there is complete engagement and intimacy in all actions, chop wood, carry water.

What is called pure consciousness experience becomes effortless and natural: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/pce.htm , and in this state there can be no dissociation. If you do not experience the aspect of intense luminosity then joy and liveliness will not be felt (see: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-importance-of-luminosity.html ) The intimacy is not the intimacy of two entities meeting each other but the sense of gaplessness, when hearing a sound the sound is as if 'you', closer than your breath, when seeing the blue sky the blue sky is as if 'you', closer than your heartbeat. Everything is alive and vivid. So how can there be dissociation and derealization?

For a theoretical understanding of no-self also see http://www.ted.com/talks/julian_baggini_is_there_a_real_you

For the experiential insights into no-self/anatta refer to On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
 
 
William Jeffery Pratt:
Dear AEN,

Poignant and veracious.

Yet, the organism that hasn't awakened and the awakened organism will both automatically recoil when it unknowingly touches a red hot fire.


The recoiling as a pure bodily function and activity will happen spontaneously without self-referencing. It is necessary and useful for the survival of this organism, be it awakened or not. It does not come with the kind of self-contraction and fear and grasping before awakening.

Some people will have glimpses of this 'spontaneous happening' even without realizing anatta. For example they may wake up from sleep and experience the body coughing by itself, too fast before the sense of self kicks in as they just woke up (the structures of subject/object, identity, selfing, takes some time to kick in after arousing from sleep). But then the sense of a detached observer then quickly kicks in, and there's a sense "oh I was just watching this thing, the body is doing its thing and I'm not the doer, I am the watcher". This is an experience of non-doership but NOT what I call realization of anatta, therefore dissociation still happens. Most people who have certain glimpses of non-self are talking about an experience of non-doership, which is not necessarily a non-dual experience, or a peak experience of PCE, but even if he/she experiences a PCE it is still not what I call the realization of anatta. Even one realizes non-dual luminosity as always undivided, they may still fall into the case of Thusness Stage 4 - subject/object non-division rather than realizing true anatta or no-subject of Thusness Stage 5 - Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

As I often said (elsewhere) - for 8 years now, there has not been the slightest sense of agency, an agent, or subject/object division in any situation. Non-doership, no agent, and no subject-object division (vivid non-dual luminosity) all at once. Spontaneous and effortlessly so as a natural state. The aspect of no agent must be clear, not just non-doership, and not just subject/object non-division or non-dual luminosity either.

Like seeing a picture puzzle, once you see it and the insight stabilizes, you can't unsee it even if you want to.
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Adyashanti:

https://www.adyashanti.org/teachings/library/writing#a-seamless-existence

In spiritual realization, if we mistake the first blush, the by-products of first discovery, for that which we’ve discovered, then we remain a kind of immature lover. An immature lover endlessly mistakes love for the experience of falling in love. In the same way, we may remain an immature realizer. We may have realized something, but we can remain in an immature state: “I want it to be this way all the time. I want it to feel like, ‘Oh, my God!’ all the time.” You’re not going to get past the threshold of the doorway of reality doing that. Experience teaches us that, and then we start to let go of it. We move beyond the ego mind into just being what we are. 

That matures for a while. And then at some point, there may be a vast expanse of consciousness. It's like being a conscious, awake, alive, vibrant “nothing.” And it's a great nothing to be—a totally ascendant, transcendent experience. But it starts to dawn on you, “Okay, I am the nothing as opposed to everything else. Something doesn’t quite add up. There’s still some division. Maybe this isn’t the entire picture.” Not that you have to throw away what you’ve realized, but maybe there’s more to the picture. “Maybe it’s not just this stark duality that I have going, being the aware, awake nothing of consciousness and the everything of existence, the form of existence. That’s a fundamental duality.” 

When that interest arises in you, it starts to help. There’s a clutching that you don’t even know is happening. It’s deep in the unconscious. It’s holding on to the new identity of formlessness. There’s a great tendency to want to stay there because it’s a kind of heaven. And you can understand why, because life’s a rough ride sometimes, and then you come into contact with something that’s never been harmed and can’t be harmed ever, and is always there, something that nobody can give you or take away from you. It is such an amazing relief and security to experience something like that. One is not quick to let it go, nor should we be quick to let it go. But it does arise that there may be more to this story. 

That curiosity starts to loosen the unconscious holding on to the new identity as formless awareness. It’s not that the formless awareness identity has to go anywhere; it’s just that the clutching at it starts to loosen. And as it loosens, then the witness position relinquishes itself, and the witnessing collapses into the witnessed. When the holding starts to be relinquished, it’s the descending movement. It descends down into the heart. When this descent happens, the heart starts to awaken, and the witness collapses into the witnessed. Then we start perceiving through the heart, seeing through the heart. Then the witness and what is witnessed seem to be one. They’re the same. 

It's a grand inclusion and the waking up of a perceptual capacity from the heart that sees the underlying unity of existence. Experientially, it’s like looking up at a tree and feeling as if the tree is seeing itself. Or you look up at the sky and it feels as though the sky is seeing itself. Or you touch something and you feel as though what you’re touching is feeling itself.

There’s no subject-object relationship going on anymore. There’s just one seamless thing, whatever you want to call it. Ramana called it the Self. The Buddhists call it Buddha nature. You could even call it the perception of life experiencing itself. “Oh, I thought I was apart from life. I thought life was something that I was in and trying to negotiate.” That’s the egoic perspective. “And now I see that I’m actually life itself, the whole of it, also appearing as a particular part at the same time.” You get to play both sides. 

Excerpted from Mount Madonna Retreat, February 2018
Sakya Paṇḍita’s Instruction on Parting from the Four Attachments

I prostrate at the feet of the noble lama!
Having obtained a body with all the freedoms and advantages, encountered the precious teachings of the Buddha, and genuinely aroused the right attitude, now we need to put the Dharma into practice without any mistake. For this, we must take to heart and practise the ‘Parting from the Four Attachments’.
What exactly does this imply?
—not being attached to the present life;
—not being attached to the three realms of saṃsāra;
—not being attached to your own self-interest;
—and not clinging to some true reality in things and their characteristics.
To explain this further:
It is futile to be attached to this life, since it is like a bubble on water, and the time of our death uncertain.
These three realms of saṃsāra are like a poisonous fruit, delicious at first, but ultimately harmful. Anyone who is attached to them must be deluded.
Attachment to your own self-interest is like nurturing the child of an enemy. It may bring joy at first, but in the end only leads to ruin. Just so, attachment to your own welfare brings happiness in the short term, but eventually leads you to the lower realms.
Clinging to true existence in things and their characteristics is like perceiving water in a mirage. For a moment it looks like water, but there is nothing there to drink. This saṃsāric existence does appear to the deluded mind, yet when it is examined with discriminating awareness, nothing, nothing at all, is found to have any intrinsic existence. So, having come to an understanding where your mind does not dwell in the past, the future, or the present, you should recognize all phenomena as naturally free from any conceptual complexity.
If you act in this way,
—by relinquishing attachment to this life, there will be no more rebirth in the lower realms,
—by relinquishing attachment to the three realms of saṃsāra, there will be no more rebirth in saṃsāric existence,
—by relinquishing attachment to your own self-interest, there will be no more rebirths as a śrāvaka or pratyekabuddha.
—finally, through abandoning any clinging to reality in things and their characteristics, you will swiftly attain complete and perfect buddhahood.
This completes Sakya Paṇḍita’s unerring instruction on the ‘Parting from the Four Attachments’, the enlightened intent of the glorious Sachen Kunga Nyingpo.

...

“If you are attached to this life, you are not a true spiritual practitioner;
If you are attached to saṃsāra, you have no renunciation;
If you are attached to your own self-interest, you have no bodhicitta;

If there is grasping, you do not have the View.” - Manjushri

...


G wrote: 

All these advice lead to nothing. Its all a kind of analysis-based summation. So you must sum all those different directions and try to make out something of them. Just more of the same old stuff. The mind gets addicted to an analytical seeking stance which tends to become the real conditioning.

Instead: there is only one POV in the universe. There had never been another; there will neve be another. There is no choice. Be aware of it. Be it..... Analyse what? In the last moments of life will there be time to go through all those clever advices?!
 


Andre replied:

several things I disagree with here.

First, I'm slowly realizing that disagreeing with and disparaging lineage masters is seldomly a good idea. We are ignorant little ants compared to them, so criticizing them only deepens the gap between
us.

Second, these instructions point to a gradual set of contemplations, each with its own realization. So the point is not to have a distillation of it all, but to gradually get to subtler realizations.

Thirdly, I don't think this is the same old stuff. It's old, indeed, but it is rarely reflected upon.

Forthly, the mind doesn't get addicted to conscious patterns of analysis. The mind is attached to subconscious tendencies, which that analysis is precisely trying to uproot.

Fifthly, analysis is a means to a non-conceptual realization. At the moment of death, it's that non-conceptual realization that is helpful, not the conceptual analysis.

Sixthly, what is that singular pov? If there is no choice, what is the point of instructing one to be aware of it? In the moment of death, clinging to the existence of some ultimate whatever isn't gonna help. It's grasping to one of the ontogical extremes and thus a ticket to more samsara




G: First, and what if the lineage of masters is an All-There-Is-is-Ground-Awareness lineage? Then its OK to disagree with and disparage?

Andre: G, it's never ok to disparage, even if their views are provisional or "inferior".

G: I had to look up the meaning of "disparage". I agree.

Lets drop this. I am in a premenstrual mood.

Just that, right now, looking at what others have to say about what the taste of the grapes I am eating makes no sense.





I wrote:

If anatta is realised there is no grasping at some ground awareness. “Awareness” is not referring to a truly existing undifferentiated oneness but just an empty convention like weather, a convenient label for the multiplicity of self luminous disp
lays. Analysis on this point is required until one directly realises this beyond a shadow of doubt, then all appearances arise as one’s radiance as the bardo thodol (“tibetan book of the dead”) often emphasize is the requirement for liberation while dying.

The advice posted by Andre above can be summarised as completely non attached yet fully engaged. This is the practice-actualization after anatta realisation and has to penetrate all three states to be of help at death. http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../tibetan-book...

When anatta matures, one is fully and completely integrated into whatever arises till there is no difference and no distinction.

When sound arises, fully and completely embraced with sound yet non-attached. Similarly, in life we must be fully engaged yet non-attached
 

Mason posted:

Kyle, Robert: Our conversation reminded me of this beautiful quote from Zen Master Hakuin:

"Hence the Meditation Sutra's preaching is perfectly clear: 'The height of the buddha's body is ten quadrillion miles multiplied by the number of sand particles in sixty Ganges rivers.' Can someone tell me: Is this colossal body the Sambhogakaya? Is it the Nirmanakaya? Or is it the Dharmakaya? We saw before that the Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya appear to benefit sentient beings in response to their various capacities. Yet how large would a world have to be to accomodate such a buddha? Can you imagine the gigantic size of the sentient beings to whom he would appear? And don't say that because sentient beings in a Pure Land of such size would be correspondingly large, a buddha would have to manifest himself in a large form too. If that were true, wouldn't bodhisattvas, religious seekers, and everyone else who inhabited such a world have to be of similar size as well: 'ten quadrillion miles multiplied by the number of sand partciles in sixty Ganges rivers'?

A river the size of the Ganges measures forty leagues across; its sands are as fine as the smallest atoms. Not even a god or demon could count the sand in a single Ganges river, or in half a Ganges river - or even, for that matter, the sand in an area ten feet square. And we are talking about the sand in sixty Ganges! The all-seeing eyes of the Buddha himself could not count them. These in essence are numbers that cannot be reckoned, calculations beyond calculating. Yet they contain a profound truth which is among the most difficult to grasp of all those in the Buddha's sutras. It is the golden bone and the golden marrow of the Venerable Buddha of Boundless Life.

If I had to say anything about it at all, it would be that the sand in the those sixy Ganges rivers alludes to the colors and forms, the sounds, and the rest of the six dusts that appear as objects to the six sense organs. Not one of all the myriad dharmas exists apart from these six dusts. When you fully awaken to the fact that all the dharmas perceived in this way as the six dusts are, in and of themselves, the golden body of the Buddha of Boundless Life in its entirety, you transcend the realm of samsaric suffering right where you stand and become one with supreme perfect enlightenment.

At that moment, everywhere, both east and west alike, is the Land of the Lotus Paradise. The entire universe in all directions, not a pinpoint of earth excepted, is none other than the great primordial peace and tranquility of Vairochana Buddha's Dharma body. It pervades all individual entities, erasing all their differences, and this continues forever without change."

- "Authentic Zen" by Hakuin, from collection The Essential Teachings of Zen Master Hakuin, trans. Norman Waddell

 ....

http://home.primusonline.com.au/peony/song_of_zazen.htm

HAKUIN ZENJI - SONG OF ZAZEN
Dharma poem by Hakuin Ekaku [1685-1768],

Translated  by Robert Aitken Roshi.

All beings by nature are Buddha,
as ice by nature is water;
apart from water there is no ice,
apart from beings no Buddha.
How sad that people ignore the near
and search for truth afar,
like someone in the midst of water
crying out in thirst,
like a child of a wealthy home
wandering among the poor.
Lost on dark paths of ignorance
we wander through the six worlds,
from dark path to dark path we wander,
when shall we be freed from birth and death?
For this the zazen of the Mahayana
deserves the highest praise:
offerings, precepts, paramitas,
Nembutsu, atonement, training--
the many other virtues--
all rise within zazen.
Even those with proud attainments
wipe away immeasurable crimes--
where are all the dark paths then?
the Pure Land itself is not far.
Those who hear this truth even once
and listen with a grateful heart,
treasuring it, revering it,
gain blessings without end.
Much more, if you dedicate yourself
and confirm your own self-nature--
that self-nature is no nature--
you are far beyond mere argument.
The oneness of cause and effect is clear,
not two, not three, the path is put right;
with form that is no form
going and coming--never astray,
with thought that is no thought
singing and dancing are the voice of the Law.
Boundless and free is the sky of samadhi,
bright the full moon of wisdom,
truly is anything missing now?
Nirvana is here, before your eyes,
this very place is the Lotus Land,
this very body the Buddha.
Also see: +A and -A Emptiness

Thusness, some quotations from 2014:

"Wonder why K sees "things" are only conceptual designations as an issue. In fact that is key to understanding prasangika madhyamaka and in fact only after insight of anatta can one fully accept this profound insight. But it is not how jax explains and understands.

We must accept that all are mere imputations but from the insight of anatta, not from the insight of substantialist view. "Phenomena" is understood differently from our general English usage, "phenomenon" in Buddhism in general is object possessing identifiable characteristic and therefore having essence that is findable. However in Prasangika it is said that phenomena are merely names and imputations. But "mere" imputation in Prasangika cannot be understood apart from its dependencies. This dependency is key and is what dependent arising and emptiness are about.

When Prasangika says that things or phenomena are just mere labels, names, designations or imputations, it is not as we understood in common English terminology, rather, it is to be understood from the perspective of dependent designations, not just designations. Without understanding this dependencies, we are not understanding what is meant by "mere designations". That is, it is mere name/designation/imputation because the designated referent as an entity when sought can never be found apart from its basis of designation. This basic understanding must be there and must go into our inmost mindstream. And only direct insight of anatta can understand the significance.

Therefore the non-conceptuality is not simply non-conceptuality as in freedom from labeling but a freedom from the blinding spell of seeing things in terms of 4 extremes from reified designations. This extends to all phenomena be it conditioned or unconditioned phenomena. As for non-conceptuality, there are fierce debates between Gorampa and Tsongkhapa. There is also Mipham's view of non-conceptuality but these masters agree that the mode of non-conceptuality is a very specific and special mode of intuitive insight that relates to freedom of extremes, not just imageless bare mode perception."

This is important if you want to progress into the realization of emptiness of phenomena.

It relates to the Jang Gya quote I asked you to contemplate. In fact that is the key and in article I wrote to you about what I meant by two fold in dharma overground where I asked you what is emptiness."
"the way the 7 phases of insights are quite similar except that it is not as structured. For example, in hearing, there is no hearer, only sound. In this case the background is deconstructed but sound appears to be true, clear, vivid and undeniable. So we deconstruct further and realized that it is empty and non-arising. But at the conceptual level we do not have a way to guide the conceptual mind, we need to see the "dependence" in conceputality whenever we attempt to single out from a dynamic complex flux. In mmk, we see thinker and thinking arises in dependence, runner and running...u cannot have one without the other. Then we may ask if there is no running, isn't the agent is still there? Then Nagarjuna will tell you there is no state where you are not in activity in a state of flux. However when the mind imputes, designate, it is immediately frozen and partial so we need to know the dependence, know that nothing is established ultimately, know the way the conceptual mind deals with the nature of experience in a valid way.


Then in direct experience experience is like totally exerted yet non-arise and similarly in conceptuality, you see the relationships yet nothing is established. Both conceptual and non-conceptual are like dreams, like water, like rainbow...both have the taste as what the madhymaka yogi describe, pouring water into water."


"
Prasangika is the perfect view for anatta practitioners especially the way we understand anatta. It is like a complete system of thoughts based on using anatta as the base. But being a system that is highly focused on logics and reasoning, it may not be suitable for all even for those who have realized anatta. To these practitioners (anatta), their preferred mode is more direct than conceptual as that mode of direct perception is already open.

But by making that experience and insight (anatta) into a systematic logical reasoning platform, so many subtle points are being revealed.


So when I try to bring across to you these subtle points, I always try to make it comes as an experiential insight to you. One is the Jang Gya comment that I try to bring across to you for almost a year...when I asked you to contemplate the 2-fold emptiness article.


Because your mind always skew towards the illusion aspect, you can't understand it is not just about the illusion.

Not just about the illusion-like nature..."



"

space is based on imputed consciousness...basically to be designated is to be imputed by consciousness. When talking about designation, it is like even non-conceputality is also included. That is, if you hear sound as if it is external, standalone...if you see rainbow you see it as a whole as if standing objectively by its own...that is being imputed and designated...having the same import."

"Don’t misunderstand the term “mere imputation” wrongly. It is very important to understand the term “mere” is very special in Prasangika. “Mere” and “cannot stand at its own side” are synonym. I suggest you to treat “mere” to mean “that it is merely labelled as the emptiness of phenomena is deep and the dependencies are profound.” The very fact that phenomenon are empty of inherent existence means that phenomena are not existing at their own side therefore this “mere designation” cannot be eliminated in the ordinary sense; in fact there is no elimination, you can’t. To free it, one must see “Emptiness” and Dependent Origination. Because of the profundity, if one practice the inferring and reasoning path, there are various lines of reasoning like diamond slivers, sevenfold reasoning, unfindable as one or many, four extremes and lastly of course, the king of reasoning Dependent Arising to guide the practitioners towards right understanding. Thus this “mere imputation” can’t be overcome by deep shamatha concentration; can’t be overcome by ordinary non-conceptuality; can’t be overcome by non-thinking because it is “dependent” on its basis; it is not just a designation. Even the cessation of Nirodha-samapatti cannot do away with this “mere imputation” permanently. In Prasangika, only the intuitive insight of prajna wisdom of both self/Self and Phenomena is able to break the chain of specific dependent origination because ignorance as the root cause of cyclical existence is severed. Anyway just my 2 cents. Please read and understand with your own insights and experiences. See you in Singapore!"

"I am going tell you how to read nagarjuna mmk and understand prasangika with ur heart...opening ur full heart and read it with anatta insight. Fully experiential form of reading. It is will not be the orthodox way of interpretation but fully from experiential insight."


"Just like when hearing sound, if your heart is open, it can turn into a full bloom experience of anatta and even into the subtlety of 2 fold. When contemplating even the word "mere" in prasangika, we can also have a full blown insight, experience and realization."


"I am documenting my zen of prasangika...i find so much joy in it...when i meditate, my mind is in incredible bliss...illusory yet amazingly real...the intellect is put into place...experience and view in sync....how succinct, precise and beautiful."


"See non-conceptuality and conceptuality as empty appearances like pure sound and scenery... they are of equal status, no special hierarchy. Over-skewing towards either is a disservice. If you see a vivid clear rainbow even in non-conceptual mode, if you chase after rainbow without realizing its causal dependencies and empty nature, how is grasping released. If you want to see its dependence arising then initial phase of inferring is necessary. Both must work hand in hand."


"Recently you been using quite frequently the term "dependent designation", what does it mean?


...socially we don't designate and label this way. We do not label "things" based on their parts as basis of designation. Socially agreed labeling is based on the "thing" itself that appears to truly exist objectively.


But why do we need to understand this way, meaning the name is just a convenient convention that is pointing to an object? Still we can apply and say that the label "table" is empty.


It is a practice for the conceptual mind to re-wire itself to see emptiness and dependent arising. So conceptuality is not a problem. Otherwise even non-conceptual mode of perception is grasping. Why expressed this way? Because (imo) it expresses reality (experiential reality) as it is, as the 2 truths. It trains the conceptual mind to constantly see the 2 truths in a unified way. The beauty is this: The "mere designation" is in actual experience non-conceptual; the dependencies in actual experience is conceptual; Yet ironically it is the conceptual that releases the non-conceptual by realizing its non-arisen because it dependently originates. When the 2 converged and actualized into seamlessness, that then is the non-conceptuality that is free from extremes (imo).


In seeing, there is no seer, only scenery. Scenery is clear, lurid and brilliance. It is non-conceptual yet it is not released. It is released when realized as not truly there, empty.


In prasangika there are 4 terms that can be quite confusing but interesting. But when you know what it points to, it can be extremely useful in helping us to articulate clearly. These 4 terms are false, valid, mistaken and erroneous...if you are interested, you can explore into it. But you don't have to go into it if you are not interested...lol.


In prasangika there are 4 terms that can be quite confusing but interesting. But when you know what it points to, it can be extremely useful in helping you articulate clearly what is meant by sentient being, arya, Buddha, conventional reality, conventional truth. These 4 terms are false, valid, mistaken and erroneous...if you are interested, you can explore into it. But you don't have to go into it if you are not interested... lol."


"The non-conceptuality of Appearance must be 2fold [emptiness of person and emptiness of phenomena] then it is the "appearance as divine" of RongZom Chokyi Rinpoche...also the same as Mipham. Appearance can still be non-conceptual but still being reified."


"Also after anatta, there is just these on going reflections...when anatta is realized, dharma is directly seen. When selflessness of phenomena is realized, then one sees dharmata and appearance becomes illusion-like. This however is different from analytical negation by way mmk reasoning. It is an experiential taste. When this is carried out fully and non-dually then the way of "naturalness" becomes clear.


We must also be completely and thoroughly clear that naturalness is impossible when non-dual is not seen as empty. The other point is latent disposition of seeing origination must go hand in hand with analysis, not just by non-conceptual experience alone. This is because in post meditative equipoise, the mind analyses and if the mind continues to analyze with its inherent/dualistic framework, it cannot rest. Therefore the best way is to re-orientate the mind to see mere-designations because it is a direct semblance of the nature of non-conceptual appearance."



"the purpose of teaching mere designation is to tell us the nature of mind and phenomena, there is no other purpose other than that imo. We are not studying the physical causes and conditions, then it would be better off studying hard science."

"

When listening to music, the beautiful music is form from the flowing notes but each note when hit is already gone. How is the music heard? It is said that "music" is a convention designated in dependence on it parts -- the flowing notes. The "music" is empty and non-arising. The notes never really "meet" each other, nvr caused each other yet the current note depends on the previous to be played. So "conditionality" but not a causal agent having the inherent power to effect. What is this telling you abt designation, emptiness, conditionality and dependent arising? They are telling you the nature of experience, the nature of mind."

"when sentient beings are lost seeing inherent this and that, consciousness is termed "mind"; when an arya directly perceived emptiness, it is terms "wisdom" in Dzogchen. Mind is but a designation, when sought it cannot be found. What found are these on going appearances without core, without substance and without dimension.


so studying how these appearances are formed is studying the nature of mind. We do not understand mind as empty and dependent arising and likewise we do not know wisdom is naturally perfected. Grasping "essence" obscures the way of spontaneous presence and natural perfection.



but it is better not to talk about dzogchen...lol...see it as the 7th phase of insights.


no matter how one negates, appearances continue to magically appear; then at this point one realizes appears therefore empty and empty therefore appears. If phenomena are not empty, appearances are impossible.



The mind is singling out and abstracting certain aspects of whatever arises and therefore appearance and emptiness appear separate, when realized both cannot be even said to be one.



In emptiness practice, these 2 terms are used to described the taste of emptiness. In meditative equipoise it is known as space-like, post meditative equipoise it is termed illusion-like. This relates to an arya when seeing appearances post meditation, how things appears is still as if it is on its own but deep down, it is realized to be dependently originated and non-arisen. However these descriptions imo suit those practitioners that take the path of analysis, direct yogic experience after 2 folds require more creative expressions...:P



my entire body-mind experience for the pass few weeks has been unobstructed like space; phenomena are luminous and dimensionless like evanescent mist...background nothing and foreground empty even in the 3 states...natural and perfect, inexpressible beyond words. I think 2 folds have sunk sufficiently deep. I pray hard that Buddha bless me the wisdom to penetrate into the deepest nature of mind and let these insights be my authentic mind stream life after life....

"

"But learning madhyamaka mere designation helps me a lot.



I find Candrakirti's "mere designation" is quite creative and insightful. It helps me a lot. "



"

we can talk and talk and talk...but without seeing essencelessness from top to bottom, left to right...the unconditioned release and the spontaneous perfection will not dawn as actual taste....it is not necessary to do analysis like in the mmk but it does help a lot especially in this modern age where the mind is so sophisticated...lol....it is the recognition of the "essencelessness" that is most crucial, once we clearly see by way of analysis or by way of direct insight of the relationships between essencelessness, freedom, grasping, natural manifestation and spontaneity....and continue to authenticate the truth in activities...when non-dual essencelessness as it is dawn...everything and every action will be free, perfect and unmade."

"

Actually in prasangika, designation is not just a simple place holder...it can have multiple meanings...it can include whatever cognized, known, imputed... "mind is but a designation", it is a way of practice....practicing how the prasangika trains one to see non-arising, dependencies....to sync "how phenomena appears" with "phenomena as it is".... In this practice of seeing "mind is but a designation", complex dynamic of pure process is seen, the meaning "mere" is seen...non-arising is seen...dependencies are seen...unfindability is seen.... It is like saying "no self"...a practitioner that has matured his insight of anatta not only sees non-dual, not only directly experiences vivid luminous sounds, colors, shapes, scents....not only taste what freedom is like...not only realized what is reification...a practitioner sees all of these.



when i say mind is but a mere designation, i also see anatta."

"

For Tsongkhapa himself, the mere I, is not only that...the absolute I is negated...but mere I is very special to prasangika practitioners...mere I carries memories from life to life...the continuity of the mental consciousness....in the gelug prasangika, they do not need foundation alaya consciousness alaya, they just need this "mere I" which is a designation ... that is why I say when you read "mere" in prasangika, you must know it is not the normal english word that means "just or simply".

so mere designation has the taste of "a dream in a dream" and not only that, it also defines the entire dependent arising, emptiness and non-arisen relationships. It cannot be negated...like empty appearances kept appearing due to its dependencies.

It is like the term "logos" in bible which means "word"...but the word is itself God...lol

so in this case, when one is engaged in conventionality, he is in fact in full practice. The profoundity of this cannot be under-estimated....this is how duality has invaded us totally to make the world appears dual.

read about the mere I, you will understand more what i meant....

but i find many made it a form of academic study rather than a practice. However i have integrated it as a practice my own way...to bridge the desync of view and experience.


btw this is what that is revealed in my dream...where the designation and the phenomena mystically merged into one...and a voice somehow told me the word is not a representation of the phenomena, see the designation as the phenomena! Then i woke up and became clear how to practice even engaging in conventionality.

I re-read john ahn and albert's conversation...it relates to another question about de-construction of "physicality". What is the relation between "physical", designations and consciousness? If we seriously think about it, how is it possible that a chain of physical causes (like hitting a bell, sound waves, air vibration) can give rise to a mental event (sound-consciousness)? We feel "physical" as something very different and separated from consciousness as if physical conditions went through a twilight zone then magic happens and BAM sound-consciousness arises. Actually "the alienness and difference" between physical and mental is purely due to the power of classifications -- the mind is bounded by that spell of our worldly definitions and suddenly "physical" feels very different from "consciousness". This is analogous to drawing a line in thin air and miraculously we find ourselves unable to step beyond that line. Designations have profound implications to consciousness and is magic to mind. We must b aware of that. Be it science or religions, we are always bounded by the power of definitions and designations. So the difference between them is in fact difference by hypnotism but not by reality. If we break this spell then "physicality" and "mental" becomes a blur and we realize "physical" is nothing "physical" and never a moment separated from consciousness; likewise consciousness is also only consciousness by definition. So in addition to seeing through mind's constructs into direct experience of non-duality and non-conceptuality, we must also be deeply aware of the power of mind's constructs and designations to consciousness; otherwise we are not understanding consciousness at all."


"Actually before I read into the details of prasangika madhyamaka, I do not know the relationships between them -- Total exertion/Mere designation and dependent designation."

"So to experience the "interconnectedness" of total exertion is to see the web of designations. There are 2 points you are missing: 1. "Mere" designation of Prasangika is special. It is not a designation that reference an objective object. 2. The other part you are missing is the dream in a dream to make these designations alive."

"if we were to read mere designation like a scholar without meditative experience in deconstruction, we will not understand how mere designation gives rise to non-conceptual experience. But if we read with the experience of deconstruction in anatta and mind-body drop, we will understand."

"

In prasangika, is a phenomenon mistaken rest on whether it is understood as dependent arising and empty of inherent existence, not on the validity of cognition in accordance to accepted conventionality or its (direct/indirect) mode of cognition. This is different from Buddhist logicians Dharmakirti or Dignaga or ur teacher Chen treatment of first direct immediate mode of perception as always valid and unmistaken. There are 2 important points abt this imo, one is to clearly distinguish between non-conceptual direct mode of perception from direct perception of selflessness. Both are non-conceptual and direct but the former is considered sentient being in ignorance and the later is arya mode of perception. The other point which I believe is unique to gelug is the pointing out that even what we considered as intrinsic characteristic is nothing intrinsic at all; It is rather established by worldly conventions and a mistaken view of taking uniqueness as intrinsic. Btw once insight of anatta arose, we should focus on non-conceptual mode of tasting the non-arising nature of phenomena until it becomes the default mode. Otherwise imo it becomes a retrogress and a waste.

"


"

What you should do now is focus on second fold...empty foreground in the form of non-conceptual taste. Then discipline on one energy practice. The refinement of view will b must simple when non-dual releasing becomes mature.

Don't entertain too much conceptuality now...intellectual quest will not help you much now ... It can only help you gather knowledge and nothing much. However for those that has no direct insight and is unclear about non-conceptuality, non-dual and anatta, it helps.

I said conceptuality is imp becoz ppl gives the wrong impression that conceptuality is a problem and preach the idea of throwing them aside before direct insight arises


And emphasized no need for conceptuality. After anatta, one still engages in concepts, how can it not be important. To have the mind rest in right view is important. But for one that has direct insight, focus should be non-conceptual taste of whatever arises. The essencelessness in both background and foreground. This is much more crucial.


For me my purpose of studying is to find out is there a sound and proper view for one to start...and how this view can penetrate all the experiences...like total exertion...which I can't find anywhere beside dogen soto zen.

Not to go back to conceptuality...lol

Because as I told you the desync of view and experience is a problem in actual practice. So my question is what is a good and sound clear view that a practitioner should have from start and this view can help to penetrate all the insights.

I prefer a combination of koan and short stanza like that of anatta with right view. But this view must be clear from start. Zen lack a defined structure. mmk is too analytical esp after all the Tibetan masters polemic exchanges.

No what I mean is a view and a structure like that of "mere designation" to hv a semblance of direct experience of 2 fold and total exertion. Then in each of the phase, to trigger the direct insight, use koan or short stanza for contemplation.

Mere designation is good but to understand that one need to understand what is meant by existence in name only or nominality. Nominality is the core of gelug prasangika and there are certain points that I think it is not appropriate to write as I m not a gelug practitioner. Nominal or designation should not b the way it is explained by the scholars and even those gelug masters but I guess I m not in the position to talk abt that. And seriously I do not want to get into unnecessary discussions abt it. Nominality makes the different gelug and other schools abt conventional reality. Other schools focus more on clarity and appearances ... What is clarity and appearance like in each of the phase of clearing the intrinsic-ness. Quite the same as the 7 phases also. "

"If asked what I am most drawn to (in Tsongkhapa's teachings), I am most drawn to Prasangika's "mere imputation". The quintessence of "mere imputation" is IMO the essence of Buddhism. It is the whole of 2 truths; the whole of 2 folds. How the masters present and how it is being taught is entirely another matter. It is because in non-conceptuality, the whole of the structure of "mere imputation" is totally exerted into an instantaneous appearance that we are unable to see the truth of it. In conceptuality, it is expanded and realized to be in that structure. A structure that awakens us the living truth of emptiness and dependent arising that is difficult to see in dimensionless appearance."
"In ultimate (empty dimensionless appearance), there is no trace of causes and conditions, just a single sphere of suchness. In relative, there is dependent arising. Therefore distinct in relative when expressed conventionally but seamlessly non-dual in ultimate."

When suchness is expressed relatively, it is dependent arising. Dependent designation in addition to causal dependency is to bring out a deeper aspect when one sees thoroughly that if phenomena is profoundly without essence then it is always only dependent designations."

"When Dogen rows the boat, the rowing makes the boat a boat and makes the hand, the sea, wooden oars and the movement of the boat into the "rowing". The designations turns "alive" yet are like mere reflections. Why is it like water pouring in water? Because one tastes the hand, the sea, the wooden oars going beyond their designated boundaries into one seamless (like pour water in water) action of rowing. There is no self, only that action of rowing. With anatta and dependent arising, you will feel immense inter-relatedness yet empty like reflections even in the world of conceptualities. The father is dependent on the son and the son makes the father a father. Don't just look at the logic, see how much emotions and love are invested in them. There are no "things" and "world" other than that. So not just what that is direct, clean, brilliance, non-dual, non-conceptual and transparent is empty like space; you must re-enter the world, dirty your hands and see conventionalities with this new found insights of selflessness and DO...see the whole chain of arisings...so intricate yet empty like reflections."






Jan 2015:


The "link" explained to b convention is not what I m look at. Dependent arising is not about conventions. Do not read pass by simply ascribing it to conventionality. Like ignorance, the karmic tendencies and clarity, you do not say they are just conventions. Conventions are used to explain certain but not all stuff. Buddhism is definitely not all about conventions...don't escalate it unnecessarily.

The 7 fold and 5 reasoning of madhyamaka are not to tell you abt conventionality. It is to tell you how intricate, inevitable, inseparable and cannot b understood and contained by any extremes views. Y Candrakirti must analyse in such a way...especially in conceptual understanding..."

"Found the term - emergent. When hearing the post by James.

Means DO as the understanding of the relationship between emergent phenomena like (qualia) and its parts. How the whole is more than the sum of its parts and how non-arisen emptiness and DO step in instead of seeing emergent phenomenon as a by-product that is somehow derived from the parts.

No this is not what I meant by table and it's relationship with its parts...but I dun actually like the way it is presented by ken Wilber...Michael Talbot in holographic universe presents a better explanation. The whole is contain in a part and the parts are contain in whole. It explains why only a tiny bit of brain is only required for memories. Means if you keep cutting a small part of the brain out, memories seem to retain without being affected much. How so? One of the explanation is every single part contain the whole - holographic.

Don't mixed the purpose of conventions for explanations for dependencies and dependencies for being holographic..."

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"Nirvāṇa is an illusion. Even if there is anything greater than Nirvāṇa, that too will be only an illusion."400 A Bodhisattva is a mere dream. Even the Buddha is only a name. Even the Perfect Wisdom itself is a mere name. Dreams, echoes, reflections, images, mirage, illusion, magic, void—such are all objects of intellect.401 The Śatasāhasrikā Prajñā-pāramitā (八 千 頌 般 惹 經) also condemns all dharmas as illusory. They have neither origination nor decay, they neither increase nor decrease, they are neither suffering nor its cessation, they are neither affirmation nor negation, neither eternal nor momentary, neither Śūnyatā nor aśūnyatā.402 They are mere names and forms. They are Māyā (夢 幻). And Māyā is declared to be an inconsistent category which cannot resist dialectical scrutiny and which is ultimately found to neither existent nor non-existent.403 All phenomena arc mere names; they are only a convention, a usage, a practical compromise.404 The Laṇkāvatāra (楞 伽 經) condemns them to be like an illusion, a dream, a mirage, a hare’s horn, a barren woman’s son, a magic city, the double moon, a moving fire-brand presenting an appearance of a circle, a hair seen floating in the atmosphere by defective vision, an empty space, a sky-flower, a mere echo, a reflection, a painting, a puppet like mechanism, which can be called neither existent nor non-existent.405

Many Mahāyāna sūtras such as the Lalitavistara (神 通 遊 戲 經),406 the Samādhirāja (三 妹 王 經)407 and the Suvarṇaprabhāsa (金 光 明 經) 408... also join in such descriptions.

- http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../the-concept-of...


Thusness Stage 6 commentary:

"Here practice is clearly understood as neither going after the mirror nor escaping from the maya reflection; it is to thoroughly 'see' the 'nature' of reflection. To see that there is really no mirror other than the on-going reflection due to our emptiness nature. Neither is there a mirror to cling to as the background reality nor a maya to escape from. Beyond these two extreme lies the middle path -- the prajna wisdom of seeing that the maya is our Buddha nature."