Posted by: Soh
Thusness's reply to Longchen at http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/305606.

Also see a newer post in this blog of Longchen's realisation of Emptiness, The non-solidity of existence
Originally posted by longchen:
In my case, nondual is easier to experience when there are bodily movement. This is when i am walking or eating. The mind rest and just feeling the sensations.
However, when thinking kicks in... it is not so easy. This can be liken to a dog trying to bite its own tail. The habitual tendency to let go of these thoughts becomes the arising of the dualistic perception. 'Let go' becomes the very effort. and a loop cycle ensues. However, there are also time when the 'let go effort' drops and restfulness follows. ... and one wonders just how silly the 'let go' effort is. LOL.
The guess is that one must sustain a 'deeper' level of 'knowing' non-efforting.... that cannot be sought after.
Precisely so and well experienced!

Non-dual brings u out of the mental loop, directly experiencing whatever touched, sensed, seen as IT. Before perception intervenes, it is thoroughly experienced. Non-dual eliminates the constant need of falling back to a source and see manifestation as source.

However in a practical world, there is no way we can avoid dirtying our hands and remain free from conceptualization; we have to face 'thinking'. It seems that whenever thinking steps in, the 'sense of self' surfaces and division is again experienced. The ‘background’, the ‘ultimate source’ will arise and there is no way of getting rid of this split for this is the nature of dualism. Every time we recall or think there will always be a division; the background, the source will surface. And as long as our fundamental way of analyzing and thinking rest on a subject-object paradigm, there will always be a mismatch between non-dual experience and the 'views' for a non-dualist.

Although non-dual insight eliminates the split between the observer and observed experientially, it does not dissolve the deeply rooted dualistic framework. We continue to think and analyze using a subject/object dichotomy. Even though there is sufficient non-dual experiences, when attempting to orientate in terms of ‘views’, a non-dualist can still be confused himself and at times appears incoherent. This is the de-synchronization between views and meditative experiences.

In Buddhism there is a complete system of thought to orientate ourselves non-dually, that is, the viewless-view of Emptiness. It is a raft but it is the antidote for the conventional mind to orientate itself in a non-dual and non-local context. It also led to the amazing insight that ‘duality’ is really the result of seeing and taking things ‘inherently’ (You may want to the take up the challenge of re-engaging in thoughts penetrating this viewless view of Emptiness and thoroughly understand how this affect us into seeing things dualistically).

At present, we experience our world through the lens of seeing things as existing dualistically and inherently. We deeply believe that entity possesses certain form of attributes. Deep in us we believe that ‘redness’ belongs to the flower and ‘blueness’ belongs to the sky. We were trained to see things not only dualistically but also objects consisting of attributes and functions. But in truth, there is no such ‘redness’ that belongs to the ‘flower’. There is no the ‘redness’ outside, nor inside us. There is no properties 'inherently' attached or attributed to any objects. The formation of the 'center' and the tendency to grasp is not just the problem of seeing things 'dualistically' but also 'inherently'. When we see in this way, all 'letting go' are mere illusions; For we are really 'holding' in our deep most consciousness and so the 'letting go' is only superficial. When we see things inherently, whatever state, whatever experience, no matter how profound, how blissful, how vivid, how mystical, will be objectify into an object for seeking; the tendency operates subtly. It is similar to how the experience of the Source "I AM" is distorted and later non-dual insight that sees the fundamental problem of the source.

Lastly, as stated in the Bahiya Sutta,

In seeing, (there is always) just the seen.
In hearing, (there is always) just sound.

The seen, sound are the non-dual luminous experience; but direct experience of non-dual luminosity is not sufficient. Though perfectly clear and vividly present as in non-dual experience, the 'seen' is radically different from the 'sound' -- this is its emptiness nature. This viewless view must be fused into our non-dual insight. When views are firmly established and non-dual experience thoroughly authenticated, a practitioner will see everything as Awareness without conflict in both views and experiences. Not bounded within an inherent and dualistic paradigm, he will not be confused. When the real cause and the empty nature of our pristine awareness are understood, this ‘Emptiness’ view too must be discarded.

Happy CNY!

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Update - Comments by Thusness:

Blogger PasserBy said...
The reply to Longchen may sound confusing but it is a reflection of the journey I have gone through.

After the experience of anatta, there is a period of desync between what is experienced and the existing paradigm we used to orientate the world. That is, a practitioner will find great difficulties when trying to express the experience based on a subject/object dichotomy. It can be quite frustrating and the practitioner may get himself confused during the process.

It is not uncommon to find practitioners totally giving up this attempt to synchronize "views" and experience and conclude that it is an absolute futile endeavor to do that. They prefer to rest fully in naked awareness.

By doing so, the practitioner will miss something valuable -- the insight of the importance of "non inherent existence".

In fact, dualistic view is merely a subset of seeing things 'inherently'. Further understanding will also reveal that the bad habit of 'searching' is the result of seeing things 'inherently'. Our inability to sustain a non-dual experience is also the result of it. The formation of a 'center' that we are so unwilling to give up is merely a natural phenomenon of our deeply held 'inherent' views.

When the view and experience are harmonized, the practitioner can then progress further. He rest neither in concepts nor non-conceptuality. He frees himself from erroneous views like "I am You and You are me". He sees “Everything as Awareness” but that is because in the world of Empty Luminosity, the practitioner is not bounded in a subject/object or object/attributes paradigm. “Awareness as Everything” should never be understood from a dualistic perspective.

Lastly whatever said is really “already is”.

In seeing, there is always only the seen. In hearing there is always only the sound. Never was there a seer or hearer.



All “already is”. Anatta is truly a seal. How amazing!

Homage to Buddha.

PS: Modified a lil from Bahiya Sutta
February 5, 2008 10:07 AM
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1 Response
  1. PasserBy Says:

    The reply to Longchen may sound confusing but it is a reflection of the journey I have gone through.

    After the experience of anatta, there is a period of desync between what experienced and the existing paradigm we used to orientate the world. That is, a practitioner will find great difficulties when trying to express the experience based on a subject/object dichotomy. It can be quite frustrating and the practitioner may get himself confused during the process.

    It is not uncommon to find practitioners totally giving up this attempt to synchronize "views" and experience and conclude that it is an absolute futile endeavor to do that. They prefer to rest fully in naked awareness.

    By doing so, the practitioner will miss something valuable -- the insight of the importance of "non inherent existence".

    In fact, dualistic view is merely a subset of seeing things 'inherently'. Further understanding will also reveal that the bad habit of 'searching' is the result of seeing things 'inherently'. Our inability to sustain a non-dual experience is also the result of it. The formation of a 'center' that we are so unwilling to give up is merely a natural phenomenon of our deeply held 'inherent' views.

    When the view and experience are harmonized, the practitioner can then progress further. He rest neither in concepts nor non-conceptuality. He frees himself from erroneous views like "I am You and You are me". He sees “Everything as Awareness” but that is because in the world of Empty Luminosity, the practitioner is not bounded in a subject/object or object/attributes paradigm. “Awareness as Everything” should never be understood from a dualistic perspective.

    Lastly whatever said is really “already is”.

    In seeing, there is always only the seen. In hearing there is always only the sound. Never was there a seer or hearer.

    All “already is”. Anatta is truly a seal. How amazing!

    Homage to Buddha.

    PS: Modified a lil from Bahiya Sutta