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Kyle Dixon shared with me resources describing first bhumi years ago, "The Daśabhūmika sūtra, and its commentary by Vasubandhu. Candrakīrti’s Madhyamakāvatāra. The Avataṃsaka.
But I’m not sure how extensive the descriptions are. The first bhūmi is without a doubt the first instance of insight into emptiness.
Wikipedia says “According to Tsong Khapa, first level bodhisattvas directly understand that persons do not exist by way of their own nature. Due to this, they overcome the false idea that the five aggregates constitute a truly existent person. They also eliminate predispositions toward corrupted ethics so completely that they will not arise again.[8]”
There’s no doubt this is anatta."
Someone thinks that the First Bhumi corresponds with the I AM realization. I disagreed and explained why:
- This realization is always the first (in
the cases I know, as in me and you) and it's not easily reversible, so
it fits as a first ground (bhumi). That's their meaning...
- It's
very, very joyous, as we all know, as it's the first glimpse of real
espirituality. Real change in the mind. Real "seeing" of truth, even
it's not final.
- As the first bhumi is in the path of seeing (and the rest in the path of meditation), it also fits.
-
Tradition doesnt say that you realize Anatta in the 1st Bhumi, saya
that there's the first glimpse of emptiness (sunyata). And certainly for
the first time the meditator faces something without característics,
some kind of "atman" or emptiness-I
What are you asking -- whether the author is at I AM or whether first bhumi requires Anatta (Stage 5) realization?
I'll answer both anyway --
It
is very clear from the text that he is describing I AM realization,
being exactly how I would describe it as well, as I have been through
the Thusness 7 Stages myself. Even if you have not gone through those 7
stages, if you just compare the description of Thusness Stage 1 (see
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
) with the redditor's description, you will find that it is similar.
Examples from his writings -- "I found the true me. The true I."
"Get
aware of this worrying voice and manage not to identify with it anymore
and every time you're aware of it you manage to make the gap bigger
between you (the awareness) and the ego."
His experience is very
similar to Eckhart Tolle's description of the I AM awakening. Also as
Longchen/Simpo wrote many years ago,
"I
think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let
go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation
from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.
To
me, 'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one
aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect.
The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual
is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an
attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage,
there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of
thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM
stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative
world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.
However, at
Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that
the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER
occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required."
Furthermore, I just wrote today as a comment to the redditor's post:
"Yes.
The post indicates I AM realization and shouldn’t be mistaken as
finality though every realization does appear final in some ways. I AM
realization also comes with doubtless certainty, this is why he speaks
with such confidence.
This is also why he resonated with The
Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, which is also speaking from the I AM
realization. He will also like Ramana Maharshi, if he finds his book in
future. He will not understand or resonate with Daniel Ingram or Actual
Freedom at this stage as Daniel’s insight is more on anatta."
Now -- as to why I said first bhumi requires the
realization of anatta as in Thusness Stage 5, well, this is standard
sutric criteria for the attainment of First Bhumi. You can find this
information everywhere. It can also be argued that first bhumi is in
fact Thusness Stage 5 and 6 (based on the descriptions in
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-mahayana-model-of-awakening_2.html
) combined, in any case, all agree there must be at least the
realization of Anatman (stage 5).
I like Mipham Rinpoche's description of the first bhumi (first ground) too -
"...The
corpus of the doctrines of Maitreya and the scriptures of the great
chariot, Asaṅga, both teach with a single intent that a person on the
ground of motivated conduct184 first understands all phenomena to be
merely mind, and then experiences that the mind has nothing to perceive.
Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining,185 one
realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the
perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from
dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the
attainment of the first ground.
Duckworth, Douglas. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 151). Shambhala. Kindle Edition."
I just saw your arguments and they contain some misunderstandings.
"-
This realization is always the first (in the cases I know, as in me and
you) and it's not easily reversible, so it fits as a first ground
(bhumi). That's their meaning..."
Not really. Many people (most
people I know) go through the I AM and non dual first before anatta and
emptiness, but not all. Daniel M. Ingram realized anatta but did not go
through the I AM realization first. After his realization of anatta, he
did stumble across a "post-8th-jhana/pure land jhana" state which he
describes as the "all-pervading Watcher" or Presence, and that is
similar to I AM. But he categorized it as a jhanic state and he only
accessed it after anatta. It is not so important to him.
There
are also other cases who realize anatta and emptiness without going
through the I AM phase. Take for example, this Mahamudra practitioner -
2008 Conversation with Thusness:
(4:15 PM) AEN: tsultrim serri:
(4:15 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
(4:15 PM) AEN:
(Mind
has often been likened to a mirror, but the analogy goes only so far,
because mirrors exist and mind doesn't, well let's say that one can
touch mirrors. What existence means, particularly at these levels, would
be a fruitful topic, but one that i will not cover. Also , mind doesn't
really reflect phenomena, it is the phenomena themselves. This is
covered further down in these 4 prajnas, but for clarity i thought i
should mention that.
(4:15 PM) AEN:
"Thusness' or "suchness" is
what one feels with the experience of emptiness. It is a solid sense of
being (yes, emptiness has a solid or one could say rich feeling). The
luminescence of mind can be compared the the surface of a mirror. If the
mirror is dirty it doesn't have a bright surface, and if mind is filled
with obscuration its awareness is dimmed. With the experience of
emptiness, phenomena become more vivid. It is said in the post that this
confirms one's entrance into Zen. In the vajrayana, this vividness of
mind is called "osel" in Tibetan, and it is a sign that one has entered
the vajrayana. In my experience, this is quite far along the path. To
get to this point, one would have to experience egolessness of self,
egolessness of other, nondualty, emptiness, and only then luminosity.)
(4:16 PM) Thusness: very good.
(4:16
PM) AEN: from another thread: "Exist is a tricky word in Buddhism. Mind
does not exist in the sense of being a thing, but it does exist as
well, otherwise how would we be able to see, hear etc.
Having said
that, for an individual, there is nothing "outside of awareness."
Everything that happens to us happens in our awareness(it's not ours,
but so what). Furthermore, we are literally everything that happens in
our awareness. There is no self; we are simply the world. if we see a
chair in our kitchen, that is what we are at that moment since there is
no separation between phenomena and mind. Phenomena are mind and mind is
phenomena. smile.gif
Tsultrim"
(4:17 PM) Thusness: where u get this?
(4:17
PM) AEN:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=7692fa535ee30b60543606546d085f85&search_in=posts&result_type=posts
(4:17 PM) AEN: an e-sangha poster
(4:20 PM) AEN: u can go read Kensho in context of the first prajna
(4:20 PM) AEN: he explains the four prajnas in his own words
(4:20
PM) AEN: i think the first poster also have some experience but he
mistook buddha-nature as a mirror reflecting, then tsultrim went to
comment on the four prajnas himself
(4:21 PM) AEN: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=78548&hl=
(4:21 PM) AEN: four jnanas i mean
(4:22 PM) Thusness: this tsultrim's insight is stage 6.
(4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:23 PM) Thusness: truly good.
(4:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:23 PM) Thusness: not many can truly feel the differences.
(4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:24 PM) Thusness: it is only until a certain phase of experience then that clarity comes.
(4:24
PM) Thusness: and often in tremendous in the stability of
thoughtlessness... thought almost seldom arise and one becomes the full
vividness of arising phenomena.
(4:25 PM) Thusness: is he a dzogchen practitioner?
(4:25 PM) AEN: oic
(4:25 PM) AEN: i think mahamudra
(4:25 PM) AEN: he talks about the four yoga
(4:25 PM) Thusness: ic
(4:25
PM) AEN: "(Yes, this agrees, in my opinion, with "nonmeditation" in the
4 yogas of mahamudra, the last and most fruitional yoga of mahamudra."
(4:25 PM) AEN: oh
(4:25 PM) AEN: and he linked the 4 jnanas to the 4 yogas
(4:26 PM) Thusness: where?
(4:26 PM) AEN: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=78548&hl=
(4:26 PM) AEN: tsultrim serri
post Oct 15 2008, 11:36 PM
(5:19
PM) Thusness: actually what he said about prajna and jhana is quite
good. But u have to know that it is not the sort of jhana as in
concentration.
(5:20 PM) Thusness: it is the experience of effortlessness in non-dual luminosity.
(5:22 PM) Thusness: There will come a time every day mundane activities, practice and enlightenment is just one substance.
(5:24 PM) AEN: no he said jnana
(5:24 PM) AEN: jnana is more like knowledge
(5:24 PM) AEN: not jhana absorption :P
(5:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:25 PM) Thusness: ic
(5:26
PM) Thusness: There will come a time when emptiness becomes so clear
and the separation is no more then without the need to recall or remind.
The last veil that separates is like permanently gone. Then there is
no practice because all moments of arising phenomena is just one
practice.
(5:28 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:28 PM) AEN: thats what he means by observing emptiness and 'being' emptiness rite
(5:28 PM) AEN: i mean the difference between it
(5:29 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
(5:29 PM) AEN:
In
a post above, i distinguished between the two. I know you asked
Matylda, but until she replies, if she does, possibly i could be of
help.
Prajna is the tool that sees emptiness. It is actually an
expansion of awareness, using awareness in the context of
mindfulness/awareness. Awareness gets to a point where it discovers the
nature of mind which includes emptiness. At that point, awareness
transforms into prajna. There are lesser stages of prajna as well, but i
would have to review them.
Prajna has been likened to the mother of
all the Buddhas, because through its activity the mind that becomes the
Buddha mind is born. Actually, it has always been there, and is unborn,
but let's not quibble.
(5:29 PM) AEN:
So, prajna sees emptiness.
When first seen, however, one feels emptiness as separate from what has
discovered it. There is still a slight trace of dualism. We experience
this dualism as a seeking for emptinesss ie there is a seeker and
something sought. At the realization of jnana, this duality melts, so to
speak, and emptiness exists or doesn't exist without a sense of
something observing it. Also, one attains wisdom when emptiness arises,
not wisdom about anything, simply being in the state of wisdom. With
prajna, one observes that wisdom; with jnana, one becomes it.
Tsultrim
(5:35 PM) Thusness: jnana here does not
refer to the type of concentration like it said. It is an effortless
non-dual luminous experience due to the maturing of prajna.
(5:35 PM) Thusness: I have often said clear until absorbed. Vividness of forms.
(5:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:37
PM) Thusness: It is the outcome of the clarity of insight due to the
dissolving of that tendency to divide. It is natural, not a form of
attention or concentration. This should not be misunderstood.
(5:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:38
PM) Thusness: He mentioned about luminosity is the last fruition stage
and one must go through emptiness to realise this stage.
(5:39 PM) Thusness: This is not exactly right. :)
(5:39 PM) Thusness: Advaita Vedanta practitioner will experience the opposite. :)
(5:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:39 PM) AEN: but for mahamudra it is like that rite?
(5:39 PM) AEN: theravada also?
(5:39 PM) AEN: like dharma dan
(5:40 PM) Thusness: yes
(5:40 PM) AEN: cos rite
(5:40 PM) Thusness: it is because of right view
(5:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:40 PM) Thusness: without the right view, u will experience luminosity aspect of awareness without knowing its empty nature.
(5:40 PM) Thusness: that is more dangerous.
(5:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:41 PM) Thusness: therefore establishment of right view is most important. Seeds are planted.
(5:42
PM) Thusness: It is better not to experience then to experience the
wrong stuff and makes it more difficult to get out of the dualistic
experience of Eternal Witness.
(5:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(Though
in later years, Thusness and I agree that it's probably a good thing
for people to go through the I AM phase first, it can shorten the path
provided that there is good guidance, otherwise one can get stuck in I
AM for their whole life)
"- It's very, very joyous, as we all know, as it's the first
glimpse of real espirituality. Real change in the mind. Real "seeing" of
truth, even it's not final."
Yes, even the I AM realization is
blissful and joyous, but it is not the same as first bhumi. As Thusness
said before, Luminosity is Blissful but not liberating. It is the
realization of emptiness, or the union of luminosity and emptiness, that
is liberating. It is the bliss of nirvana, not just a blissful state of
Presence or Clarity.
"- As the first bhumi is in the path of seeing (and the rest in the path of meditation), it also fits."
It
is different. In many Buddhist paths, one indeeds start from the direct
realization of Presence-Awareness (similar to I AMness). As Lopon
Malcolm (qualified and asked to teach Dzogchen by his guru Kunzang
Dechen Lingpa) pointed out, in the Dzogchen path, one really starts
practicing Dzogchen when one has a direct recognition of Rigpa as the
clarity radiance aspect of Rigpa, but this is not yet the realization of
emptiness. The realization of emptiness, and first bhumi, happens on
the Third out of the Four Visions of Thodgal.
You can read Malcolm (Lopon Namdrol/Malcolm)'s posts in Dharmawheel, I like to read his posts from time to time.
Likewise
in Mahamudra, the Luminosity aspect (unfabricated Clarity or Presence)
is pointed out in the First Yoga of One Pointedness, yet the first bhumi
is only starting from the Yoga of One Taste (where both perceiver and
perceived are realized to be empty and the subject/object duality is
severed) according to Clarifying the Natural State by Dakpo Tashi
Namgyal and his other book Moonlight of Mahamudra.
(9:23 PM) Thusness: why i have stated 6?
(9:23 PM) AEN: stated 6?
(9:23 PM) AEN: u mean why have u stated that 6 is needed?
(9:23 PM) Thusness: 6 stages
(9:23 PM) AEN: oic
(9:24 PM) AEN: erm bcos need to go through different level of understanding first?
(9:24 PM) Thusness: because i want to include other religions and mysticism form of enlightenment
(9:24 PM) Thusness: all are included
(9:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:26 PM) Thusness: in buddhism only stage 5 onwards is enlightenment
(9:27 PM) AEN: icic
(9:27 PM) Thusness: in christianity and mysticism and hinduism, stage 1 - 4 is enlightenment
(9:27 PM) Thusness: stage 5 onwards is unknown to them
"- Tradition doesnt say that you realize Anatta in the 1st Bhumi,
saya that there's the first glimpse of emptiness (sunyata). And
certainly for the first time the meditator faces something without
característics, some kind of "atman" or emptiness-I"
You are completely misunderstanding emptiness as defined by Buddhadharma here.
"For
those who encounter emptiness teachings after they've become familiar
with awareness teachings, it's very tempting to misread the emptiness
teachings by substituting terms. That is, it's very easy to misread the
emptiness teachings by seeing "emptiness" on the page and thinking to
yourself, "awareness, consciousness, I know what they're talking about."
Early
in my own investigations I began with this substitution in mind. With
this misreading, I found a lot in the emptiness teachings to be quite
INcomprehensible! So I started again, laying aside the notion that
"emptiness" and "awareness" were equivalent. I tried to let the
emptiness teachings speak for themselves. I came to find that they have a
subtle beauty and power, a flavor quite different from the awareness
teachings. Emptiness teachings do not speak of emptiness as a true
nature that underlies or supports things. Rather, it speaks of selves
and things as essenceless and free. "
"
• Emptiness is not a substance
• Emptiness is not a substratum or background
• Emptiness is not light
• Emptiness is not consciousness or awareness
• Emptiness is not the Absolute
• Emptiness does not exist on its own
• Objects do not consist of emptiness
• Objects do not arise from emptiness
• Emptiness of the "I" does not negate the "I"
• Emptiness is not the feeling that results when no objects are appearing to the mind
• Meditating on emptiness does not consist of quieting the mind"
There's not an accepted translation bhumis-to-4 yogas.
Quoting Astus from Dharma Wheel here we have some options:
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol (Lamp of Mahamudra):
some say: 3 stages of simplicity and arriving at one taste - first bhumi and path of cultivation
most say: post-meditation after attaining simplicity - first bhumi / path of sseeing
first stage of simplicity - 1-3 bhumi
medium stage of simplicity - 4-5 bhumi
greater simplicity - sixth bhumi
first stage of one taste - seventh bhumi
medium one taste - eighth bhumi
higher stage of one taste - ninth bhumi
lesser and medium stages of nonmeditation - tenth bhumi
based on Drelpa Dönsal:
[path of virtuous absorption - one-pointed yoga
path of insight - non-discrimination yoga]
path of meditation (bhumi 2-10) - one taste yoga
buddhahood - nonmeditation yoga
based on Je Gyare:
path of spiritual merit - preparatory practices
path of virtuous absorption - one-pointed yoga
path of insight - nondiscrimination yoga
path of meditation - one flavor yoga
9-10 bhumi - lower-middle nonmeditation
buddhadhood - greater nonmeditation
Tashi Namgyal's own:
path of spiritual merits and first ground - preparatory practices and three levels of one-pointed yoga
path of virtuous absorpation and ground of joy - three levels of nondiscriminatory yoga
path of insight and meditation, 1-10 grounds - 1-3 levels of one flavor and 1-2 levels of nonmeditation
buddhahood - greater nonmeditation
Of
all the quoted options, mi favorite is relating the first bhumi to I AM
and to the culmination of One-pointness and beginning of Simplicity.
Please refer to page 101 of Clarifying the Natural State, quote:
"The three meditation stages of One Taste and the lesser
and medium Nonmeditation corresponds to the duration
from the level of the first bhumi and the path of seeing, as
well as to the path of cultivation from the second to the
tenth bhumi."
Clearly Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is stating the first bhumi starts with One Taste.
In
any case, the Yoga of Simplicity does have some insight into emptiness,
yet somehow the anatta nondual sort of realization is missing and only
comes in the Yoga of One Taste in the Mahamudra system.
I'm 100%
confident that I AM cannot be equated with First Bhumi. Why? First Bhumi
is like the Mahayana equivalent of Stream Entry.
All views of
Self (or inherent existence) are eliminated in that direct realization
of emptiness, and the complete elimination of self-view is the criteria from scriptures for both Stream Entry and 1st Bhumi (even after the elimination of self-view, traces of self can arise like the leftover stench of a jar when its contents are poured out -- see Khemaka Sutta -- but the self will not be seen as real and existing, when all traces of self are eliminated one attains liberation ala Arahantship or 8th bhumi).
Therefore, Thusness Stage 1 and 4 are automatically disqualified as possible candidates of both first bhumi and stream entry, as
all of them have not yet overcome various gross and subtle views of
eternalism and essentialism or self-view.
You cannot possibly hold the view of an eternal Self, source and substratum, and still claim to be free from views of Self.
If I have time I will try to find some sutra quotations of first bhumi.
"According to Tsong Khapa, first level bodhisattvas directly
understand that persons do not exist by way of their own nature. Due to
this, they overcome the false idea that the five aggregates constitute a
truly existent person. They also eliminate predispositions toward
corrupted ethics so completely that they will not arise again.[6]"
- John Powers, Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism
Also, from a Buddhist Glossary -
Two emptinesses (二空) include (1) emptiness of self, the ātman, the
soul, in a person composed of the five aggregates, constantly changing
with causes and conditions; and (2) emptiness of selves in all
dharmas—each of the five aggregates, each of the twelve fields, and each
of the eighteen spheres, as well as everything else with no independent
existence. No-self in any dharma implies no-self in a person, but the
latter is separated out in the first category. Realization of the
emptiness of self in a person will lead to attainment of Arhatship or
Pratyekabuddhahood. Bodhisattvas who have realized both emptinesses
ascend to the First Ground on their Way to Buddhahood.
1.
The Joyous Ground: The Bodhisattva's initial entrance into sainthood,
breaking through the confusion of views, realizing the principle of
twofold emptiness of person and dharma. (The Bodhisattva) gives rise to
great joy, therefore it is called The Joyous Ground. At this ground,
(one) accomplishes the Paramita of Dana (generosity) among the
Bodhisattva Ten Paramitas.
Commentary: View-Confusion - the various
forms of delusional and deviant views, extreme views (e.g.
eternalism/nihilism, existence/non-existence), self views, etc.
Dana - Generosity, has the meaning of 'relinquishment'.
Paramita - has the meaning of 'to the other shore'.
Also,
ask any Lamas/Rinpoches/Teachers and they can affirm that the first
Bhumi Bodhisattva has direct realization of Sunyata (Emptiness). Not
anything like Atman-Brahman.
You will never find any sutras that
state the first bhumi Bodhisattva realizes Atman-Brahman, on the
contrary, they will state that the first bhumi Bodhisattva realizes
Emptiness - Sunyata.
Also "ground" just means a stage of attainment. It has nothing to do with an Atman-Brahman.
"The
Sanskrit term bhūmi literally means "ground" or "foundation". Each
stage represents a level of attainment, and serves as a basis for the
next one. Each level marks a definite advancement in one's training,
that is accompanied by progressively greater power and wisdom."
Also I am quite doubtful you have personally realized Anatta. Do
note that non-dual has different phases -- One Mind, No Mind, and Anatta
realization. More often than not one is in One Mind and No Mind phase,
and has not realized Anatta. The aspect of the realization of view will
become very clear after realization of anatta and especially twofold emptiness.
I tend to agree with Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's mapping of Four Yogas
with Bhumis, but even if the other Mahamudra masters are right (the others seem to map first bhumi/lower bhumi with the yoga of simplicity) it still affirms
my position -- since the Yoga of Simplicity is described as the
realizing of the non-arising (sunyata, emptiness) of all phenomena. As I
said, certain insights of emptiness has arisen but not yet non-dual
anatta. But you will not see them describing the earlier stages as I
AMness.
This is the case of Tsultrim -- his insights of emptiness has arisen before nondual anatta luminosity.
The
Vijñāptimātratāsiddhi or Discourse on the Perfection of
Consciousness-only states: "Of the ten bhumis, the first is the Joyous
ground. The initial attainment of Saintliness, realizing Two Emptinesses
(of Self and Phenomena), being able to benefit oneself and others,
great joy arises."
p.s. I just suddenly remembered a conversation I had with Thusness in 2008 on One Taste:
Session Start: Sunday, August 31, 2008
(2:08 PM) Thusness: wah u wrote so much about one taste. :P
(2:08 PM) Thusness: kok ur head!
(2:10 PM) AEN: huh where
(2:10 PM) AEN: lol
(2:10 PM) AEN: i just updated my post
(2:10 PM) AEN: removed some part and added some part
(2:10 PM) Thusness: every place. :P
(2:11 PM) Thusness: next time must do a constant check on the url awakeningtoreality. :P
(2:11 PM) Thusness: One Taste here and there...kok ur head
(2:11 PM) AEN: orh u mean google haha
(2:11 PM) AEN: i tot u mean sgforums
(2:11 PM) Thusness: yeah. Although ken wilber experience is non-dual, it is not exactly One Taste yet.
(2:11 PM) AEN: oic y
(2:11 PM) AEN: one taste include emptiness?
(2:12 PM) Thusness: yes din i tell u?
(2:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:13 PM) Thusness: The non-duality of advaita sort of understanding is different from buddhism.
(2:13 PM) Thusness: how could one reaches the phase of One Taste without understanding the emptiness nature?
(2:14
PM) Thusness: The One Taste realisation is of 2 parts: No
object/subject split and both object/subject are empty of any inherent
existence.
(2:15 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:15 PM) Thusness: Penetrating these 2 aspects, insight arises of the One Taste.
(2:15 PM) Thusness: Since when did i tell u about Advaita sort of understanding is non-dual of Buddhism?
(2:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:16 PM) Thusness: So many times I told u it is the empty nature that Buddha came to teach us, not only the luminosity aspect.
(2:16 PM) Thusness: The non-dual luminous nature is described all over the Vedas
(2:17 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:17 PM) Thusness: kok ur head!
(2:18
PM) Thusness: Anyone not talking about the 3 seals, understanding the
anatta sort of non-duality is not talking about Buddhism.
(2:19 PM)
Thusness: anyone that lead to the understanding of Brahman is deluded in
Buddhist perspective. The One Mind, the One Reality is the
non-inherent in nature.
(2:19 PM) Thusness: it should not be understood from a dualistic and inherent perspective.
(2:19 PM) AEN: oic but ken wilber talk about brahman meh :P
(2:20 PM) Thusness: Yes.
(2:20 PM) AEN: oic
(2:21 PM) Thusness: Therefore the experience is non-dual but the insight isn't.
(comments
by Soh: Ken Wilber's insight is Thusness Stage 4 but he erroneously
equates his Brahman-style nondual realisation with Mahamudra's One
Taste)
Chandrakirti states that the first bhumi has direct realization of the nonexistence of the self:
"b.
The five additional qualities of lineage, elimination, realization,
ability, and progression 6 (1) The first bodhisattva ground transcends
the levels of ordinary beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas. The
Bodhisattvas who enter this ground become members of the family of the
Tathagatas; they will never more stray to other paths, for their lineage
is now irreversible. (2) The Bodhisattvas on this ground have a direct
realization of the nonexistence of the self. This enables them to
abandon the three fetters:
the view of the transitory composite,
the belief in the superiority of their ethical discipline, and
doubt—together with all the obscurations eliminated on the path of
seeing. (3) Because they have attained the sublime qualities of
realization and have eliminated all defects, the Bodhisattvas experience
an extraordinary happiness, which is why this ground is called Perfect
Joy. (4) At the same time, the Bodhisattvas acquire one hundred and
twelve powers, such as the miraculous ability to cause a hundred
different worlds to tremble. 63 These are the qualities of their
extraordinary, indeed sublime attainment. 7 Finally, (5) the
Bodhisattvas’ quality of progression means that they joyously proceed to
the higher grounds, from first to second and so forth.
c. Birth in the lower realms is no longer possible"
Etc etc
From Introduction to the Middle Way: Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara with Commentary by Ju Mipham
6
(1) The first bodhisattva ground transcends the levels of ordinary
beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas. The Bodhisattvas who enter this
ground become members of the family of the Tathagatas; they will never
more stray to other paths, for their lineage is now irreversible. (2)
The Bodhisattvas on this ground have a direct realization of the
nonexistence of the self. This enables them to abandon the three
fetters: the view of the transitory composite, the belief in the
superiority of their ethical discipline, and doubt—together with all the
obscurations eliminated on the path of seeing. (3) Because they have
attained the sublime qualities of realization and have eliminated all
defects, the Bodhisattvas experience an extraordinary happiness, which
is why this ground is called Perfect Joy. (4) At the same time, the
Bodhisattvas acquire one hundred and twelve powers, such as the
miraculous ability to cause a hundred different worlds to tremble.63
These are the qualities of their extraordinary, indeed sublime
attainment. 7 Finally, (5) the Bodhisattvas’ quality of progression
means that they joyously proceed to the higher grounds, from first to
second and so forth. c. Birth in the lower realms is no longer possible
It is said that when Bodhisattvas reach the first ground, all paths
whereby they might fall into the lower realms are closed. The
realization of the level of “acceptance” on the path of joining,64 in
fact, does not furnish the complete conditions for prevention of lower
birth, whereas on the first ground, the seed for such a birth is
counteracted by antidotes and annihilated. Bodhisattvas who attain the
first ground are now Aryas or Superiors, for they can never relapse into
the states of ordinary beings. This ground of the Mahayana is said to
correspond, by analogy, to the eighth Arya level of the Hinayana (that
of “Stream Enterer abiding by the result”). This is according to a
scheme65 that counts the state of “Arhat abiding by the result” as the
first level, and proceeds in reverse order through the level of
“candidate for arhatship,” and so on, to that of “Stream Enterer abiding
by the result.” On all these levels, all that is eliminated by the
wisdom of seeing and so forth is abandoned, and all corresponding
qualities of elimination and realization are gained. The eighth level is
sometimes explained as referring to the stage of “candidate for Stream
Enterer.” 2. The qualities whereby Bodhisattvas outshine other beings 8
With enlightenment as their aim, Bodhisattvas, while only on the
first ground, overwhelm the Shravakas, born from the Buddha’s speech,
and eclipse the Pratyekabuddhas. They do this through the power of their
merit accruing from relative bodhichitta and nonreferential compassion;
for compared with the Shravakas and Pratyekabuddhas, the merit of
Bodhisattvas is ever-increasing. It is on the seventh ground, called Far
Progressed, that they outshine them also by their wisdom, their
understanding of absolute bodhichitta. 3. The superior quality of the
first ground a. The preeminence of the paramita of generosity on the
first ground 9 Of the ten paramitas, the causes of perfect
buddhahood, that of generosity is the most important for Bodhisattvas on
the first ground. Even when they donate their own flesh, they are free
from even the most subtle attachment and clinging to its existence.
Consequently, not only do they have no regret, but they act with the
keenest enthusiasm. On being witness to such deeds, ordinary people can
infer what they cannot see, namely, that the Bodhisattva has attained
the grounds of realization, in much the same way that fire can be
inferred by the presence of smoke. b. In praise of generosity i. In
praise of the generosity of ordinary people (1) Generosity is necessary
for ordinary people 10 Ordinary beings want only to be happy. But
happiness, the cure of human sufferings like hunger and thirst, does not
occur uncaused; it requires material sustenance. Knowing that such
wealth is the karmic fruit of acts of generosity performed in the past,
the Buddha praised it in his first teaching, even before ethical
discipline and the rest. And he did so, furthermore, because generosity
is easy to practice. (2) The benefits of generosity (a) Generosity
brings happiness in samsara 11 Even for people whose faith and
compassion are negligible, whose disposition is extremely rough and who
bestir themselves only in their own interest, the getting of material
satisfaction—in other words, a reprieve from their portion of
sorrows—comes solely as the karmic result of generosity. Generosity is
therefore the source and origin of samsaric happiness. (b) Generosity
leads to the bliss of nirvana 12 Moreover, even if they have no
compassion, open-handed people will, as a result of their generosity,
swiftly find themselves in the presence of superior beings. For it is in
the nature of things that sublime beings appear in the vicinity of
generous people. And the latter, on meeting them and receiving their
teachings, turn their backs on samsara and meditate on the path. So
doing, they completely sever the continuum of samsaric birth and death.
On the basis of such encounters, they progress toward the peace of the
Shravakas and Pratyekabuddhas. ii. In praise of the generosity of
Bodhisattvas 13 Thanks to their generosity, which satisfies all who
ask, Bodhisattvas, who have promised to benefit beings immediately and
ultimately, are quick to obtain happiness, the resultant effect of
giving. That is why they constantly delight in it. iii. Concluding
summary of praise For compassionate Bodhisattvas and for ordinary
beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas, who are imperfect in their
compassion, the bliss of the higher realms and the ultimate goodness of
enlightenment are the outcome of generous giving. Thus the teachings on
generosity are of paramount importance. iv. The respectful attitude of
Bodhisattvas toward generosity thus praised (1) The extent to which they
are devoted to generosity 14 When they hear a beggar crying “Give!”
or even when they think of such a thing—in other words, when the merest
thought occurs to them that they might have the chance to practice
generosity—Bodhisattvas experience a joy greater than that of Arhats
entering the expanse of peace beyond suffering. Is there any need to
speak of their happiness when they actually do give away
everything—their possessions and even their physical organs—to satisfy
the wants of those in need? (2) How they respectfully practice
generosity 15 Because they are so delighted by the practice of
giving, Bodhisattvas have no thought for their own suffering; instead
they try to remove that of others as quickly as they can. For they see
or understand that the pain they felt (when as ordinary beings they had
the flesh of their bodies cut and given away) is as nothing compared
with the agony of beings in hell, whose suffering is a thousand times
worse.
c.
Different kinds of generosity 16 An act of generosity associated
with the pure wisdom whereby one sees that neither act of giving, nor
gift to be given, neither receiver nor giverb has any real existence is
called a transmundane perfection, or paramita. The Sanskrit word
paramita is a combination of the elements para and ita. Para takes the
accusative termination –am, while ita assumes the visarga aspiration
which is a sign of the nominative case: thus, param + itah. When
combined, this gives paramita. The “m” termination and the visarga are
not normally audible in a compounded form. However, since the second
element begins with a vowel, the preceding nasalization is heard while
the visarga remains mute. Even when an act of generosity is not combined
with wisdom, it can still be referred to as a paramita. For it has been
said that if generosity is dedicated to complete enlightenment, it is
certainly on the way to the far shore—“gone to the far shore” being the
sense of the Tibetan words pha rol tu phyin pa and the Sanskrit
paramita. The Tibetan term may be interpreted in two ways. In the first
case, the “far shore” is understood in the sense of the Tibetan
accusative,c indicative of movement toward a destination. In this case
the term means “gone to the far shore,” that is, buddhahood. According
to this interpretation, perfect transcendent virtue is found only in the
state of perfect buddhahood and indeed is that state. In the second
case, pha rol tu phyin pa may be interpreted in an instrumental sense,
in other words, referring to the means whereby buddhahood is attained.
In this sense, transcendental virtues are found even on the path of
learning. In short, para or pha rol refers to the far shore, that is,
the far shore of the ocean of samsara. This is buddhahood wherein the
two veils are stripped away. By contrast, it is taught that when there
is attachment to the three spheres, the generosity in question is
referred to as a worldly paramita because it is still qualified by
dualistic reference. C. Concluding summary of the first ground 17
Just like the moon aloft in the sky, Bodhisattvas ride high in the
wisdom of the first ground because the bodhichitta of the first ground
is now an intrinsic part of their minds. Such Bodhisattvas are supremely
holy beings, radiantly beautiful with the light of wisdom. Like the
moon, the jeweled mandala of water crystal, the Bodhisattvas on the
first ground of Perfect Joy eliminate through their wisdom the thick
darkness of those obscurations that are removed on the path of seeing.66
They overcome them and are completely free. Here ends the first ground
or stage in the cultivation of absolute bodhichitta.
In
summary: first bhumi is functionally mahayana stream entry which
realizes the non existence of self and directly realises suchness due to
the non existence of perceiver and perceived, puts an end to the three
lower fetters, puts an end to rebirth in lower realms, and one attains
the transcendent perfection of generosity whereby one sees neither the
act of giving, nor gift to be given, nor receiver.
Self-view
in the first fetter [that is eliminated in Stream Entry and First Bhumi] includes the view of Eternal Witness, and the wrong
view of partial-eternalism where consciousness is unchanging while all
other aggregates change, even the Upanishadic infinite Self is named and
refuted by Buddhas as a wrong view. The Buddha has specifically
described and named these views, and they are all grouped under sakkaya
ditthi, the erroneous view of self. All these are defined clearly by
Buddha and falls under the category of Self-View: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../anatta-not...
Anyone
who has read the suttas will know that I AM and one mind levels of
realisation are non-Buddhist realisations and such substantialist views
are categorically rejected and relinquished upon realising the nature of
dharma, even in stream entry.
Rupert Spira's view is that of a static, monistic consciousness subsuming everything into 'itself'.
To be free from self view is to be free from *All* views of self/Self, eternalism and nihilism, partial eternalism, etc.
Malcolm related discovering the reality of mind with the first bhumi.
According to Kyle Dixon, "The reality of mind for him is non-arising which would be anatta
The
difference between gsal ba and zang thal is difference between clarity
experienced as background subject and clarity totally freed from that
through realizing anatta"
He also wrote,
"Cognitive
clarity is your cognizance reified as a subject, a self, while zangthal
is that same aspect totally freed of all extremes and conditions."
Kyle
Dixon also wrote before, "The Daśabhūmika sūtra, and its commentary by
Vasubandhu. Candrakīrti’s Madhyamakāvatāra. The Avataṃsaka.
But
I’m not sure how extensive the descriptions are. The first bhūmi is
without a doubt the first instance of insight into emptiness.
Wikipedia
says “According to Tsong Khapa, first level bodhisattvas directly
understand that persons do not exist by way of their own nature. Due to
this, they overcome the false idea that the five aggregates constitute a
truly existent person. They also eliminate predispositions toward
corrupted ethics so completely that they will not arise again.[8]”
After Kyle clarified Zang Thal, John Tan also wrote,
"[11:10 PM, 8/18/2020] John Tan: Make sense
[11:10 PM, 8/18/2020] John Tan: Means bhumi 1 to 16 r the levels of maturing and living in the wisdom of this insight.
[11:11 PM, 8/18/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[11:11 PM, 8/18/2020] John Tan: But I never really study or read into bhumis as i m not exactly interested.
[11:11 PM, 8/18/2020] John Tan:
[11:12 PM, 8/18/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol ic..
[11:14
PM, 8/18/2020] John Tan: I m more into this stability and natural
spontaneity of presence free from the proliferation of subject and
object duality into the 3 states.
[11:14 PM, 8/18/2020] John Tan: I do not want to deviate myself from this goal."
"...The
corpus of the doctrines of Maitreya and the scriptures of the great
chariot, Asaṅga, both teach with a single intent that a person on the
ground of motivated conduct184 first understands all phenomena to be
merely mind, and then experiences that the mind has nothing to perceive.
Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining,185 one
realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the
perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from
dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the
attainment of the first ground.
Duckworth, Douglas. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 151). Shambhala. Kindle Edition."
Acarya Malcolm: The same three fetters are abandoned on the first bhumi, hence first stage bodhisattvas are Mahayana stream entrants.
Someone asked: The topic has another question hidden in it: How does the śrāvaka stream-entrant differ in his realization from the bodhisattva stream-entrant other than the former theoretically missing the foundations of bodhicitta?
Acarya Malcolm: The answer, according to Candrakīrti, is that their realization of emptiness is the same, in so far as they both realize the absence of inherent existence.
Yes, in fact nowadays like Malcolm and myself, Kyle is also saying the I AM is important for a start.
krodha
10 points· 2 months ago
“Is
it possible to achieve stream entry with bipolar disorder? I've been
recently diagnosed and it has heavily discouraged me from continuing my
practice. Is there any hope? I've yet to learn about anyone with this
disorder who has achieved higher insights.”
Kyle:
I
don’t see why not. Stream entry involves recognition of the true nature
of the clear, bright, knowing, cognizance of your mind.
As
your practice progresses you should begin to familiarize with that
knowing capacity. Even with bipolar, in the height of happiness, the
depths of depression, in the intensity of anger, that knowing capacity
is always the same, stable, bright, clear. Like the surface of a mirror.
Anger, sadness, happiness and everything else are like reflections that appear in the surface of the mirror but don’t affect it.
Be the mirror and don’t get caught up in the reflections.
This is not yet stream entry. But it can be a basis for practice that will help you get there.
Soh Wei Yu
I find this comment unclear. At first it sounds like he's saying that I
AM is stream entry ("Stream entry involves recognition of the true
nature of the clear, bright, knowing, cognizance of your mind"), but at
the end he says it's not.
Either
I'm misunderstanding his usage of the word "involves," or else he's
making a distinction between the "recognition of the true nature of the
clear, bright, knowing, cognizance of your mind" and "be the mirror and
don’t get caught up in the reflections."
I am guessing it's the former: stream entry "involves" I AM but is more than it.
He
means first realise the aspect of clarity, which is not stream entry
but basis for dzogchen trekchod practice, then later realise its empty
nature of that clarity, which is stream entry. So his statement is
correct if understood that way.
Kyle
defines I AM realization as recognising the characteristic (the clarity
aspect which kyle/malcolm/chnn termed instant presence), in contrast
with realising the nature of mind which is its emptiness.
Also Kyle said months ago regarding this initial unripened rigpa used in practice:
"In
initial practice, if you treat your knowing conscious clarity of mind
as something like the surface of a mirror, and the sensory stimuli as
reflections that appear on the mirror, anchor your view as being the
mirror and the view will always be stable no matter what appears.”
Soh Wei Yu
Thanks. All of this is clear. The part that was unclear was when he
said "stream entry involves [recognizing I AM]." This made it sound like
the two are the same.
Lord Gomchung said: At the time of one-pointedness, the essence is realized.
In concept-free lucidity, mind is unidentifiable. In one’s experience, conviction is born and mind essence is seen.
At the time of simplicity, the nature is realized.
The
mind, unoriginated, unabiding, and unceasing, is unconditioned. To know
it as devoid of true nature is to realize the nature of mind.
At the time of one taste, the defining characteristic is realized.
The
images of the habitual patterns of the mind manifesting as the myriad
phenomena are realized in the state of nonorigination as having the same
taste, as an unobstructed expression of emptiness, and also as the
interdependence of the myriad phenomena. To know this is to realize the
characteristic of the mind.
Nonmeditation is all-encompassing realization.
Without
division between experiencer and experience, realizer and realization,
everything is realized as the great equality of the genuine state. This
realization is all-encompassing.
Rinpoche, Khamtrul. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, Volume Two (p. 238). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.
.....
Phagmo Drupa presented the better-known twelve subdivisions of the four yogas in the following way:
Lesser
one-pointedness is when the mind sees the identity of bliss and
clarity, middling is when its samadhi is mastered, and greater is when
it has become continuous. Lesser simplicity is when one’s mind is
realized as unoriginated, middling is when it is realized as rootless,
and greater is when all misconceptions regarding the external and the
internal have been resolved. Lesser one taste is when samsara and
nirvana have merged into one, middling is when dualistic fixation has
been cut, and greater is when all phenomena have subsided into
equality.
Lesser nonmeditation is when one is free from meditator and object of
meditation, middling is when the original seat of natural presence is
captured, and greater is when a nondual merging with luminosity has
occurred.
Rinpoche, Khamtrul. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, Volume Two (pp. 257-258). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.
....
As
is explicitly indicated here, the dawn of the realization of nonduality
or indivisibility is the path of seeing and the first bhumi. Developing
familiarity with that realization is equivalent to the path of
meditation and takes place from the second to the tenth bhumis. Since
nonmeditation has been taught as being the path of culmination and the
level of buddhahood, there is no explanation that would actually link it
with simplicity. However, when wondering whether simplicity is
considered to be the path of seeing and the first bhumi, if it were so,
it would imply that one-pointedness falls into the path of connection.
Lord
Gyare said: Although there is no need for bhumis and so forth during
the path, If taught, this is how it would be acknowledged. Offering of a
mandala is the path of accumulation. Dawn of experience is the path of
connection. Simplicity is the path of seeing. Development of realization
is the path of meditation. One taste is the eighth bhumi. Nonmeditation
is the eleventh bhumi, the path of culmination.
The
equivalences are viewed as follows. Starting from the foundational
practices, generating merit and purifying obscurations is the path of
accumulation; one-pointedness is the path of connection; simplicity is
the path of seeing; from the dawn of the realization of indivisibility
onward, including the levels of one taste, is the path of meditation;
lesser and middling nonmeditation are the ninth and tenth bhumis; while
greater nonmeditation is the eleventh bhumi and the path of culmination.
Lord Gotsangpa said:
Generation
of merit and so forth are the path of accumulation and the beginner’s
level. One-pointedness is the path of connection and the level of
devoted conduct. Simplicity is the path of seeing and the first bhumi.
One taste goes from the second to the seventh bhumis. Lesser and
middling nonmeditation are the three remaining bhumis; these are the
path of meditation. Greater nonmeditation is the path of culmination and
the level of buddhahood.
Rinpoche, Khamtrul. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, Volume Two (p. 356). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.
Sentient beings, bodhisattvas and tathāgatas are described as impure, impure and pure, and extremely pure, respectively.
Sentient beings are completely afflicted.
Ārya-bodhisattvas
are awakened and are gradually exhausting affliction, they are “impure
and pure” because 7th bhūmi and below are the “impure bhūmis” and 8th
and above are “pure bhūmis. An ārya is an awakened practitioner who has
direct non-conceptual realization of emptiness. The first bhūmi marks
the initial realization of emptiness, and then that knowledge is
integrated and stabilized by virtue of the gradual removal of
obscurations, the remaining bhūmis (along with the five paths) measure
that process of exhausting obscurations. In this context an ārya and a
bodhisattva are synonymous, and sometimes the contraction
“ārya-bodhisattva,” is used.
Buddhas
have removed all obscurations and have therefore eliminated all
affliction from their mindstreams. Thus they are considered “extremely
pure,” in the Uttaratantra’s definition.
But yes like you said, bodhisattvas are still “on the path,” whereas Buddhas are totally liberated.
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Kyle Dixon shared with me resources describing first bhumi years ago, "The Daśabhūmika sūtra, and its commentary by Vasubandhu. Candrakīrti’s Madhyamakāvatāra. The Avataṃsaka.
But I’m not sure how extensive the descriptions are. The first bhūmi is without a doubt the first instance of insight into emptiness.
There’s no doubt this is anatta."
Someone thinks that the First Bhumi corresponds with the I AM realization. I disagreed and explained why:
I hope he doesnt stop there.
First bhumi is at least Thusness Stage 5 -- realization of anatman.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
- This realization is always the first (in the cases I know, as in me and you) and it's not easily reversible, so it fits as a first ground (bhumi). That's their meaning...
- It's very, very joyous, as we all know, as it's the first glimpse of real espirituality. Real change in the mind. Real "seeing" of truth, even it's not final.
- As the first bhumi is in the path of seeing (and the rest in the path of meditation), it also fits.
- Tradition doesnt say that you realize Anatta in the 1st Bhumi, saya that there's the first glimpse of emptiness (sunyata). And certainly for the first time the meditator faces something without característics, some kind of "atman" or emptiness-I
Hug!
I'll answer both anyway --
It is very clear from the text that he is describing I AM realization, being exactly how I would describe it as well, as I have been through the Thusness 7 Stages myself. Even if you have not gone through those 7 stages, if you just compare the description of Thusness Stage 1 (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html ) with the redditor's description, you will find that it is similar.
Examples from his writings -- "I found the true me. The true I."
"Get aware of this worrying voice and manage not to identify with it anymore and every time you're aware of it you manage to make the gap bigger between you (the awareness) and the ego."
His experience is very similar to Eckhart Tolle's description of the I AM awakening. Also as Longchen/Simpo wrote many years ago,
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/09/a-compilation-of-simpos-writings.html
"I think Eckhart Tolle may have been suffering alot and suddenly he 'let go' of trying to work out his problems. This results in a dissociation from thoughts which give rise to the experience of Presence.
To me, 'I AM' is an experience of Presence, it is just that only one aspect of Presence is experienced which is the 'all-pervading' aspect. The non-dual and emptiness aspect are not experienced.. Because non-dual is not realised (at I AM stage), a person may still use effort in an attempt to 'enter' the Presence. This is because, at the I AM stage, there is an erroneous concept that there is a relative world make up of thoughts AND there is an 'absolute source' that is watching it. The I AM stage person will make attempts to 'dissociated from the relative world' in order to enter the 'absolute source'.
However, at Non-dual (& further..) stage understanding, one have understood that the division into a relative world and an absolute source has NEVER occcured and cannot be... Thus no attempt/effort is truly required."
Furthermore, I just wrote today as a comment to the redditor's post:
"Yes. The post indicates I AM realization and shouldn’t be mistaken as finality though every realization does appear final in some ways. I AM realization also comes with doubtless certainty, this is why he speaks with such confidence.
This is also why he resonated with The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, which is also speaking from the I AM realization. He will also like Ramana Maharshi, if he finds his book in future. He will not understand or resonate with Daniel Ingram or Actual Freedom at this stage as Daniel’s insight is more on anatta."
Now -- as to why I said first bhumi requires the realization of anatta as in Thusness Stage 5, well, this is standard sutric criteria for the attainment of First Bhumi. You can find this information everywhere. It can also be argued that first bhumi is in fact Thusness Stage 5 and 6 (based on the descriptions in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-mahayana-model-of-awakening_2.html ) combined, in any case, all agree there must be at least the realization of Anatman (stage 5).
I like Mipham Rinpoche's description of the first bhumi (first ground) too -
"...The corpus of the doctrines of Maitreya and the scriptures of the great chariot, Asaṅga, both teach with a single intent that a person on the ground of motivated conduct184 first understands all phenomena to be merely mind, and then experiences that the mind has nothing to perceive. Then, at the time of the supreme quality on the path of joining,185 one realizes that since the perceived does not exist, neither does the perceiver. Right after this, the truth of suchness, which is free from dualistic fixation, is directly realized. This is said to be the attainment of the first ground.
Duckworth, Douglas. Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings (p. 151). Shambhala. Kindle Edition."
"- This realization is always the first (in the cases I know, as in me and you) and it's not easily reversible, so it fits as a first ground (bhumi). That's their meaning..."
Not really. Many people (most people I know) go through the I AM and non dual first before anatta and emptiness, but not all. Daniel M. Ingram realized anatta but did not go through the I AM realization first. After his realization of anatta, he did stumble across a "post-8th-jhana/pure land jhana" state which he describes as the "all-pervading Watcher" or Presence, and that is similar to I AM. But he categorized it as a jhanic state and he only accessed it after anatta. It is not so important to him.
There are also other cases who realize anatta and emptiness without going through the I AM phase. Take for example, this Mahamudra practitioner -
2008 Conversation with Thusness:
(4:15 PM) AEN: tsultrim serri:
(4:15 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
(4:15 PM) AEN:
(Mind has often been likened to a mirror, but the analogy goes only so far, because mirrors exist and mind doesn't, well let's say that one can touch mirrors. What existence means, particularly at these levels, would be a fruitful topic, but one that i will not cover. Also , mind doesn't really reflect phenomena, it is the phenomena themselves. This is covered further down in these 4 prajnas, but for clarity i thought i should mention that.
(4:15 PM) AEN:
"Thusness' or "suchness" is what one feels with the experience of emptiness. It is a solid sense of being (yes, emptiness has a solid or one could say rich feeling). The luminescence of mind can be compared the the surface of a mirror. If the mirror is dirty it doesn't have a bright surface, and if mind is filled with obscuration its awareness is dimmed. With the experience of emptiness, phenomena become more vivid. It is said in the post that this confirms one's entrance into Zen. In the vajrayana, this vividness of mind is called "osel" in Tibetan, and it is a sign that one has entered the vajrayana. In my experience, this is quite far along the path. To get to this point, one would have to experience egolessness of self, egolessness of other, nondualty, emptiness, and only then luminosity.)
(4:16 PM) Thusness: very good.
(4:16 PM) AEN: from another thread: "Exist is a tricky word in Buddhism. Mind does not exist in the sense of being a thing, but it does exist as well, otherwise how would we be able to see, hear etc.
Having said that, for an individual, there is nothing "outside of awareness." Everything that happens to us happens in our awareness(it's not ours, but so what). Furthermore, we are literally everything that happens in our awareness. There is no self; we are simply the world. if we see a chair in our kitchen, that is what we are at that moment since there is no separation between phenomena and mind. Phenomena are mind and mind is phenomena. smile.gif
Tsultrim"
(4:17 PM) Thusness: where u get this?
(4:17 PM) AEN: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=7692fa535ee30b60543606546d085f85&search_in=posts&result_type=posts
(4:17 PM) AEN: an e-sangha poster
(4:20 PM) AEN: u can go read Kensho in context of the first prajna
(4:20 PM) AEN: he explains the four prajnas in his own words
(4:20 PM) AEN: i think the first poster also have some experience but he mistook buddha-nature as a mirror reflecting, then tsultrim went to comment on the four prajnas himself
(4:21 PM) AEN: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=78548&hl=
(4:21 PM) AEN: four jnanas i mean
(4:22 PM) Thusness: this tsultrim's insight is stage 6.
(4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:23 PM) Thusness: truly good.
(4:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(4:23 PM) Thusness: not many can truly feel the differences.
(4:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(4:24 PM) Thusness: it is only until a certain phase of experience then that clarity comes.
(4:24 PM) Thusness: and often in tremendous in the stability of thoughtlessness... thought almost seldom arise and one becomes the full vividness of arising phenomena.
(4:25 PM) Thusness: is he a dzogchen practitioner?
(4:25 PM) AEN: oic
(4:25 PM) AEN: i think mahamudra
(4:25 PM) AEN: he talks about the four yoga
(4:25 PM) Thusness: ic
(4:25 PM) AEN: "(Yes, this agrees, in my opinion, with "nonmeditation" in the 4 yogas of mahamudra, the last and most fruitional yoga of mahamudra."
(4:25 PM) AEN: oh
(4:25 PM) AEN: and he linked the 4 jnanas to the 4 yogas
(4:26 PM) Thusness: where?
(4:26 PM) AEN: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=78548&hl=
(4:26 PM) AEN: tsultrim serri
post Oct 15 2008, 11:36 PM
(5:19 PM) Thusness: actually what he said about prajna and jhana is quite good. But u have to know that it is not the sort of jhana as in concentration.
(5:20 PM) Thusness: it is the experience of effortlessness in non-dual luminosity.
(5:22 PM) Thusness: There will come a time every day mundane activities, practice and enlightenment is just one substance.
(5:24 PM) AEN: no he said jnana
(5:24 PM) AEN: jnana is more like knowledge
(5:24 PM) AEN: not jhana absorption :P
(5:24 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:25 PM) Thusness: ic
(5:26 PM) Thusness: There will come a time when emptiness becomes so clear and the separation is no more then without the need to recall or remind. The last veil that separates is like permanently gone. Then there is no practice because all moments of arising phenomena is just one practice.
(5:28 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:28 PM) AEN: thats what he means by observing emptiness and 'being' emptiness rite
(5:28 PM) AEN: i mean the difference between it
(5:29 PM) AEN: Initiated a file transfer
(5:29 PM) AEN:
In a post above, i distinguished between the two. I know you asked Matylda, but until she replies, if she does, possibly i could be of help.
Prajna is the tool that sees emptiness. It is actually an expansion of awareness, using awareness in the context of mindfulness/awareness. Awareness gets to a point where it discovers the nature of mind which includes emptiness. At that point, awareness transforms into prajna. There are lesser stages of prajna as well, but i would have to review them.
Prajna has been likened to the mother of all the Buddhas, because through its activity the mind that becomes the Buddha mind is born. Actually, it has always been there, and is unborn, but let's not quibble.
(5:29 PM) AEN:
So, prajna sees emptiness. When first seen, however, one feels emptiness as separate from what has discovered it. There is still a slight trace of dualism. We experience this dualism as a seeking for emptinesss ie there is a seeker and something sought. At the realization of jnana, this duality melts, so to speak, and emptiness exists or doesn't exist without a sense of something observing it. Also, one attains wisdom when emptiness arises, not wisdom about anything, simply being in the state of wisdom. With prajna, one observes that wisdom; with jnana, one becomes it.
Tsultrim
(5:35 PM) Thusness: jnana here does not refer to the type of concentration like it said. It is an effortless non-dual luminous experience due to the maturing of prajna.
(5:35 PM) Thusness: I have often said clear until absorbed. Vividness of forms.
(5:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:37 PM) Thusness: It is the outcome of the clarity of insight due to the dissolving of that tendency to divide. It is natural, not a form of attention or concentration. This should not be misunderstood.
(5:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(5:38 PM) Thusness: He mentioned about luminosity is the last fruition stage and one must go through emptiness to realise this stage.
(5:39 PM) Thusness: This is not exactly right. :)
(5:39 PM) Thusness: Advaita Vedanta practitioner will experience the opposite. :)
(5:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:39 PM) AEN: but for mahamudra it is like that rite?
(5:39 PM) AEN: theravada also?
(5:39 PM) AEN: like dharma dan
(5:40 PM) Thusness: yes
(5:40 PM) AEN: cos rite
(5:40 PM) Thusness: it is because of right view
(5:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:40 PM) Thusness: without the right view, u will experience luminosity aspect of awareness without knowing its empty nature.
(5:40 PM) Thusness: that is more dangerous.
(5:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:41 PM) Thusness: therefore establishment of right view is most important. Seeds are planted.
(5:42 PM) Thusness: It is better not to experience then to experience the wrong stuff and makes it more difficult to get out of the dualistic experience of Eternal Witness.
(5:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(Though in later years, Thusness and I agree that it's probably a good thing for people to go through the I AM phase first, it can shorten the path provided that there is good guidance, otherwise one can get stuck in I AM for their whole life)
Yes, even the I AM realization is blissful and joyous, but it is not the same as first bhumi. As Thusness said before, Luminosity is Blissful but not liberating. It is the realization of emptiness, or the union of luminosity and emptiness, that is liberating. It is the bliss of nirvana, not just a blissful state of Presence or Clarity.
"- As the first bhumi is in the path of seeing (and the rest in the path of meditation), it also fits."
It is different. In many Buddhist paths, one indeeds start from the direct realization of Presence-Awareness (similar to I AMness). As Lopon Malcolm (qualified and asked to teach Dzogchen by his guru Kunzang Dechen Lingpa) pointed out, in the Dzogchen path, one really starts practicing Dzogchen when one has a direct recognition of Rigpa as the clarity radiance aspect of Rigpa, but this is not yet the realization of emptiness. The realization of emptiness, and first bhumi, happens on the Third out of the Four Visions of Thodgal.
You can read Malcolm (Lopon Namdrol/Malcolm)'s posts in Dharmawheel, I like to read his posts from time to time.
Likewise in Mahamudra, the Luminosity aspect (unfabricated Clarity or Presence) is pointed out in the First Yoga of One Pointedness, yet the first bhumi is only starting from the Yoga of One Taste (where both perceiver and perceived are realized to be empty and the subject/object duality is severed) according to Clarifying the Natural State by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal and his other book Moonlight of Mahamudra.
So on and so forth.
(9:23 PM) Thusness: why i have stated 6?
(9:23 PM) AEN: stated 6?
(9:23 PM) AEN: u mean why have u stated that 6 is needed?
(9:23 PM) Thusness: 6 stages
(9:23 PM) AEN: oic
(9:24 PM) AEN: erm bcos need to go through different level of understanding first?
(9:24 PM) Thusness: because i want to include other religions and mysticism form of enlightenment
(9:24 PM) Thusness: all are included
(9:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:26 PM) Thusness: in buddhism only stage 5 onwards is enlightenment
(9:27 PM) AEN: icic
(9:27 PM) Thusness: in christianity and mysticism and hinduism, stage 1 - 4 is enlightenment
(9:27 PM) Thusness: stage 5 onwards is unknown to them
You are completely misunderstanding emptiness as defined by Buddhadharma here.
I suggest reading this article:
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/02/nondual-emptiness-teachings.html
"For those who encounter emptiness teachings after they've become familiar with awareness teachings, it's very tempting to misread the emptiness teachings by substituting terms. That is, it's very easy to misread the emptiness teachings by seeing "emptiness" on the page and thinking to yourself, "awareness, consciousness, I know what they're talking about."
Early in my own investigations I began with this substitution in mind. With this misreading, I found a lot in the emptiness teachings to be quite INcomprehensible! So I started again, laying aside the notion that "emptiness" and "awareness" were equivalent. I tried to let the emptiness teachings speak for themselves. I came to find that they have a subtle beauty and power, a flavor quite different from the awareness teachings. Emptiness teachings do not speak of emptiness as a true nature that underlies or supports things. Rather, it speaks of selves and things as essenceless and free. "
"
• Emptiness is not a substance
• Emptiness is not a substratum or background
• Emptiness is not light
• Emptiness is not consciousness or awareness
• Emptiness is not the Absolute
• Emptiness does not exist on its own
• Objects do not consist of emptiness
• Objects do not arise from emptiness
• Emptiness of the "I" does not negate the "I"
• Emptiness is not the feeling that results when no objects are appearing to the mind
• Meditating on emptiness does not consist of quieting the mind"
Quoting Astus from Dharma Wheel here we have some options:
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol (Lamp of Mahamudra):
some say: 3 stages of simplicity and arriving at one taste - first bhumi and path of cultivation
most say: post-meditation after attaining simplicity - first bhumi / path of sseeing
first stage of simplicity - 1-3 bhumi
medium stage of simplicity - 4-5 bhumi
greater simplicity - sixth bhumi
first stage of one taste - seventh bhumi
medium one taste - eighth bhumi
higher stage of one taste - ninth bhumi
lesser and medium stages of nonmeditation - tenth bhumi
greater nonmeditation - buddhahood/vajradhara, 11-13 bhumi
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal (Mahamudra: The Moonlight):
based on Drelpa Dönsal:
[path of virtuous absorption - one-pointed yoga
path of insight - non-discrimination yoga]
path of meditation (bhumi 2-10) - one taste yoga
buddhahood - nonmeditation yoga
based on Je Gyare:
path of spiritual merit - preparatory practices
path of virtuous absorption - one-pointed yoga
path of insight - nondiscrimination yoga
path of meditation - one flavor yoga
9-10 bhumi - lower-middle nonmeditation
buddhadhood - greater nonmeditation
Tashi Namgyal's own:
path of spiritual merits and first ground - preparatory practices and three levels of one-pointed yoga
path of virtuous absorpation and ground of joy - three levels of nondiscriminatory yoga
path of insight and meditation, 1-10 grounds - 1-3 levels of one flavor and 1-2 levels of nonmeditation
buddhahood - greater nonmeditation
Of all the quoted options, mi favorite is relating the first bhumi to I AM and to the culmination of One-pointness and beginning of Simplicity.
But, who really knows?
"The three meditation stages of One Taste and the lesser
and medium Nonmeditation corresponds to the duration
from the level of the first bhumi and the path of seeing, as
well as to the path of cultivation from the second to the
tenth bhumi."
Clearly Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is stating the first bhumi starts with One Taste.
In any case, the Yoga of Simplicity does have some insight into emptiness, yet somehow the anatta nondual sort of realization is missing and only comes in the Yoga of One Taste in the Mahamudra system.
I'm 100% confident that I AM cannot be equated with First Bhumi. Why? First Bhumi is like the Mahayana equivalent of Stream Entry.
All views of Self (or inherent existence) are eliminated in that direct realization of emptiness, and the complete elimination of self-view is the criteria from scriptures for both Stream Entry and 1st Bhumi (even after the elimination of self-view, traces of self can arise like the leftover stench of a jar when its contents are poured out -- see Khemaka Sutta -- but the self will not be seen as real and existing, when all traces of self are eliminated one attains liberation ala Arahantship or 8th bhumi).
Therefore, Thusness Stage 1 and 4 are automatically disqualified as possible candidates of both first bhumi and stream entry, as all of them have not yet overcome various gross and subtle views of eternalism and essentialism or self-view.
You cannot possibly hold the view of an eternal Self, source and substratum, and still claim to be free from views of Self.
If I have time I will try to find some sutra quotations of first bhumi.
It's just an opinion. I think my understading of buddhist emptiness is quite solid.
Remember I said "some kind of emptiness-I"... I didnt meaning sunyata.
If the first bhumi was realizing Anatta, why would they say that "it's the first glimpse of emptiness"?
Samdhinimorcana sutra speaks a lot about bhumis, and never says something even close to that...
If we all realize first I AM, and it's a ground, how could it not be the first ground?
Descriptions of this first ground, are not super clear, but they're not in contradition with my point.
Anyway, it not really important, we have to walk all of them :)
Sorry, I couldnt read all you posted, too much. Buy I thank you the effort.
True, but other Mahamudra masters say different thing. So it's not clear at all.
>First Bhumi is like the Mahayana equivalent of Stream Entry.
Not clear about that. Any sutric support for this affirmation? Anyway it's a nice point. A good one.
But all the Mahamudra yogas, are somekind of "ground".
Anyway I agree Anatta is realized across one-taste. And that's the important part... :)
As T. says: Have a nive journey!
- John Powers, Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism
Also, from a Buddhist Glossary -
Two emptinesses (二空) include (1) emptiness of self, the ātman, the soul, in a person composed of the five aggregates, constantly changing with causes and conditions; and (2) emptiness of selves in all dharmas—each of the five aggregates, each of the twelve fields, and each of the eighteen spheres, as well as everything else with no independent existence. No-self in any dharma implies no-self in a person, but the latter is separated out in the first category. Realization of the emptiness of self in a person will lead to attainment of Arhatship or Pratyekabuddhahood. Bodhisattvas who have realized both emptinesses ascend to the First Ground on their Way to Buddhahood.
Also, from Chinese commentary on sutras:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-mahayana-model-of-awakening_2.html
1. The Joyous Ground: The Bodhisattva's initial entrance into sainthood, breaking through the confusion of views, realizing the principle of twofold emptiness of person and dharma. (The Bodhisattva) gives rise to great joy, therefore it is called The Joyous Ground. At this ground, (one) accomplishes the Paramita of Dana (generosity) among the Bodhisattva Ten Paramitas.
Commentary: View-Confusion - the various forms of delusional and deviant views, extreme views (e.g. eternalism/nihilism, existence/non-existence), self views, etc.
Dana - Generosity, has the meaning of 'relinquishment'.
Paramita - has the meaning of 'to the other shore'.
(Chinese: 一、欢喜地:为菩萨初得圣性,破见惑,证人法二空之理,生大欢喜,故名欢喜地。于此地成就菩萨十波罗蜜中之檀波罗蜜。(注:见惑──种种妄见、邪见、边见、我见等之妄惑。檀──布施,即舍义。波罗蜜──乃到彼岸的意思。) )
Also, ask any Lamas/Rinpoches/Teachers and they can affirm that the first Bhumi Bodhisattva has direct realization of Sunyata (Emptiness). Not anything like Atman-Brahman.
You will never find any sutras that state the first bhumi Bodhisattva realizes Atman-Brahman, on the contrary, they will state that the first bhumi Bodhisattva realizes Emptiness - Sunyata.
Also "ground" just means a stage of attainment. It has nothing to do with an Atman-Brahman.
"The Sanskrit term bhūmi literally means "ground" or "foundation". Each stage represents a level of attainment, and serves as a basis for the next one. Each level marks a definite advancement in one's training, that is accompanied by progressively greater power and wisdom."
I discussed the differences in:
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/10/differentiating-i-am-one-mind-no-mind.html
https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/11/no-mind-and-anatta-focusing-on-insight.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/09/difference-between-thusness-stage-4-and.html
This is the case of Tsultrim -- his insights of emptiness has arisen before nondual anatta luminosity.
The Vijñāptimātratāsiddhi or Discourse on the Perfection of Consciousness-only states: "Of the ten bhumis, the first is the Joyous ground. The initial attainment of Saintliness, realizing Two Emptinesses (of Self and Phenomena), being able to benefit oneself and others, great joy arises."
(My translation)
"b. The five additional qualities of lineage, elimination, realization, ability, and progression 6 (1) The first bodhisattva ground transcends the levels of ordinary beings, Shravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas. The Bodhisattvas who enter this ground become members of the family of the Tathagatas; they will never more stray to other paths, for their lineage is now irreversible. (2) The Bodhisattvas on this ground have a direct realization of the nonexistence of the self. This enables them to abandon the three fetters:
the view of the transitory composite, the belief in the superiority of their ethical discipline, and doubt—together with all the obscurations eliminated on the path of seeing. (3) Because they have attained the sublime qualities of realization and have eliminated all defects, the Bodhisattvas experience an extraordinary happiness, which is why this ground is called Perfect Joy. (4) At the same time, the Bodhisattvas acquire one hundred and twelve powers, such as the miraculous ability to cause a hundred different worlds to tremble. 63 These are the qualities of their extraordinary, indeed sublime attainment. 7 Finally, (5) the Bodhisattvas’ quality of progression means that they joyously proceed to the higher grounds, from first to second and so forth.
c. Birth in the lower realms is no longer possible"
Etc etc
From Introduction to the Middle Way: Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara with Commentary by Ju Mipham
Someone asked: The topic has another question hidden in it: How does the śrāvaka stream-entrant differ in his realization from the bodhisattva stream-entrant other than the former theoretically missing the foundations of bodhicitta?
Acarya Malcolm: The answer, according to Candrakīrti, is that their realization of emptiness is the same, in so far as they both realize the absence of inherent existence.
What's the difference between a Buddha and a Bodhisattva...?
The Uttaratantra states:
Sentient beings are completely afflicted.
Ārya-bodhisattvas are awakened and are gradually exhausting affliction, they are “impure and pure” because 7th bhūmi and below are the “impure bhūmis” and 8th and above are “pure bhūmis. An ārya is an awakened practitioner who has direct non-conceptual realization of emptiness. The first bhūmi marks the initial realization of emptiness, and then that knowledge is integrated and stabilized by virtue of the gradual removal of obscurations, the remaining bhūmis (along with the five paths) measure that process of exhausting obscurations. In this context an ārya and a bodhisattva are synonymous, and sometimes the contraction “ārya-bodhisattva,” is used.
Buddhas have removed all obscurations and have therefore eliminated all affliction from their mindstreams. Thus they are considered “extremely pure,” in the Uttaratantra’s definition.
But yes like you said, bodhisattvas are still “on the path,” whereas Buddhas are totally liberated.