Session Start: Sunday, 29 May, 2011
(7:17 PM) Thusness: anatta is often not correctly understood
it is common that one progress from experience of non-dual to no-mind instead of direct realization into anatta
(7:19 PM) Thusness: many focus on the experience
and there is a lack of clarity to penetrate the differences
so u must be clear of the various phases of insights first and not mistake one for the other
at the same time, refine your experience
these few days...have deeper sleep and exercise more
balance your body energies
(9:12 PM) Thusness: no mind is an experience, it is not an insight
(9:14 PM) Thusness: ppl that have experienced no-mind knows there is such experience and aims towards achieving it again.
(9:14 PM) Thusness: but insight is different...it is a direct experiential realization.
(9:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:14 PM) Thusness: that all along it is so.
(11:19 PM) Thusness: u may have no-mind as an experience and understood that there is such an experience as simple manifestation or just the radiant world
(11:19 PM) Thusness: but still it remains as a stage
(11:19 PM) Thusness: u have no idea that it is a wrong view
(11:20 PM) Thusness: we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds'
a mistaken view shaping our entire experience
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:23 PM) AEN: dharma dan calls it the knot of perception rite
(11:23 PM) Thusness: yes
(11:23 PM) AEN: so no mind is a strage?
stage
(11:24 PM) Thusness: no-mind is the peak of non-dual, the natural state of non-dual
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic
(11:24 PM) Thusness: where the background is completely gone
(11:25 PM) Thusness: very often a practitioner in an advance phase of non-dual and One Mind, will naturally knows the importance of no-mind.
And that becomes the practice
they know they have to be there
(11:26 PM) Thusness: however, to come to this natural state of non-dual where the background is deemed irrelevant, it requires insight of anatta.
(12:09 AM) Thusness: and say yes, u realized ur mistake. wrote too fast.
Awareness is just a label...
(12:11 AM) Thusness: some of the texts u quoted are also misleading
(12:12 AM) Thusness: when one spoke to others in longchen forum, some is to lead one into non-dual from "I AM" coz they can't accept anatta insight but is able to penetrate non-dual.
(12:13 AM) Thusness: when anatta insight arises, one realizes there is no background
(12:14 AM) Thusness: when insight of emptiness arise, then all is just sharing the same taste, luminous yet empty
(12:14 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:15 AM) Thusness: that is, i do not see Awareness, just a luminous manifestation
there is no sense of Self/self
or Awareness
(12:16 AM) Thusness: there is always only sound, forms, smell...sweetness....hardness...thoughts...
effortlessly manifesting
(12:16 AM) Thusness: non-dually experienced
(12:18 AM) Thusness: in terms of actual experience, what that is written in the forum is not enough
(12:18 AM) Thusness: the intensity of luminosity isn't there.
(12:19 AM) Thusness: first u go through the "I AM" for a period first
later u will understand what i mean
(12:12 AM) Thusness: not by way of non-identification.
(12:13 AM) Thusness: by realization -- the arising insight there the mirror does not exist
(12:15 AM) Thusness: if at the back of one's mind, there is this belief of a self, then will experience of no-mind be intermittent or permanent?
(12:16 AM) AEN: intermittent
(12:17 AM) Thusness: so how is one without the realization have a permanent experience of no-mind? There is no clarity, no doubtlessness of no-self, is it possible that there is a permanent and effortless experience of all sensate experiences without self?
Thusness: ...To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing, always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)
15/4/13 12:23:19 AM: John Tan: (One Mind) Means consciousness is of true existing like a container
15/4/13 12:23:54 AM: John Tan: Consciousness is not in the body but the body is in consciousness
15/4/13 12:24:25 AM: John Tan: Sound arises in consciousness
15/4/13 12:24:56 AM: John Tan: Therefore consciousness doesn't change
15/4/13 12:25:58 AM: John Tan: The other (No Mind) is as if consciousness is the substance of matter
15/4/13 12:27:36 AM: John Tan: When we say sound-consciousness, there is no such thing as sound and sound-consciousness
15/4/13 12:27:59 AM: John Tan: That sound is the sound-consciousness
15/4/13 12:28:24 AM: John Tan: There is no such thing as sound
15/4/13 12:28:36 AM: John Tan: Or sound-conscious
15/4/13 12:29:04 AM: John Tan: When we say I hear sound
15/4/13 12:34:19 AM: John Tan: How do u differentiate one mind from no mind to anatta?
15/4/13 12:34:43 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In no mind there is no subsuming involved there is only manifestation
15/4/13 12:34:47 AM: Soh Wei Yu: But as an experience
15/4/13 12:35:07 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In anatta there is insight into no agent in seeing just seen pure manifestation
15/4/13 12:35:20 AM: Soh Wei Yu: One mind is subsuming but yet nondual is experienced
15/4/13 12:37:11 AM: John Tan: One mind is u r always looking at an ultimate mind behind, u r not looking at manifestation
15/4/13 12:37:26 AM: Soh Wei Yu: But it's not I Am right
15/4/13 12:37:36 AM: John Tan: Yes it is not
15/4/13 12:38:18 AM: Soh Wei Yu: It's like integrating foreground as being an aspect of background
15/4/13 12:38:28 AM: John Tan: Everything is consumed into the source (for One Mind)
15/4/13 12:39:24 AM: John Tan: I m is just the pure background behind but external objects r not subsumed into it...like separate
15/4/13 12:39:48 AM: John Tan: I m I ....dualistic
15/4/13 12:41:53 AM: John Tan: In this case (One Mind) all is being consumed/subsumed into the source
15/4/13 12:42:45 AM: John Tan: Sound is consciousness is not one mind but no mind
15/4/13 12:44:02 AM: John Tan: When the hearer is gone and there is only sound, that sound is precisely consciousness
15/4/13 12:45:15 AM: John Tan: That is the experience of no-mind
15/4/13 12:50:31 AM: John Tan: No mind is like the mirror becomes transparent and there is just that
15/4/13 12:51:22 AM: John Tan: But the view is the reflection and the mirror is not the same
15/4/13 12:52:09 AM: John Tan: Like sky is not the flowing cloud
.....
2009:
(12:00 AM) Thusness: means there is non-dual experience, there is non dual realization but still the practitioner is unable to understand this experience from a view free from subject-object dichotomy
(12:02 AM) Thusness: unless our experience and mind is so thorough in seeing through the center, the agent, the source, we will still subtly grasp a 'source' and that prevents us from thoroughly experiencing no-self
(12:03 AM) Thusness: the truth of anatta is being distorted and understood as non-dual experience.
.....
2009:
(11:48 AM) Thusness: the advaita experience will sort of see awareness as permeating and transcending
that is because the view is rest upon subject-object dualism
(11:48 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:49 AM) Thusness: if it is rest upon DO [dependent origination], there is no such problem
(11:49 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:50 AM) Thusness: How important is the 'Source' if it is resting on a view that has no source, center, substantiality and inherent essence
(11:50 AM) Thusness: it becomes irrelevant and erroneous and nothing to boast about.
(11:51 AM) Thusness: only when we rest our view on a 'Source', Ultimate reality seems very special.
.....
John TanFriday, November 22, 2013 at 8:25am UTC+08
But this is also good so that the point that a practitioner may hv clear experience of no mind but a view of one mind..
John TanFriday, November 22, 2013 at 8:26am UTC+08
Thus view, experience and realization
15/4/13 12:53:28 AM: John Tan: Anatta is a realization that there isn't a consciousness besides sound, scenery...etc
15/4/13 12:56:15 AM: John Tan: U c through reification of that agent and get in touch with the base manifestation where the label rely upon
15/4/13 12:57:02 AM: John Tan: So sound is the actual consciousness is referring to
15/4/13 12:57:36 AM: John Tan: There is no consciousness other than that
15/4/13 1:01:13 AM: John Tan: When they see through reification, then phenomena has a different meaning
15/4/13 1:02:04 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as awareness is not one mind
15/4/13 1:02:52 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as the same unchanging mind is the problem
15/4/13 1:04:09 AM: John Tan: When u c through reification, u realized "awareness" is just a label point to these manifestations
15/4/13 1:04:32 AM: John Tan: So there is nothing wrong saying that
15/4/13 1:05:24 AM: John Tan: Only when we treat awareness to b of true existence then we r deluded because there isn't any
15/4/13 1:11:14 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
15/4/13 1:11:36 AM: John Tan: In hearing, there is only sound
15/4/13 1:11:57 AM: John Tan: Hearing implies the presence of sound
14/5/13 9:39:15 PM: John Tan: One mind is different
14/5/13 9:40:04 PM: John Tan: One mind as I told u is the witness is gone but subsume into an overarching Awareness
14/5/13 9:40:31 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Is there a distinct phase of one mind in your seven stages?
14/5/13 9:40:48 PM: John Tan: Phase 4
14/5/13 9:41:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But u said phase 4 u already realised anatta and experience no mind?
14/5/13 9:41:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So does that mean the insight already arise by tendency to sink back to one mind is still there
14/5/13 9:42:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But
14/5/13 9:42:17 PM: John Tan: All such gray area is put onto phase 4 insight when view isn't completely clear
14/5/13 9:42:44 PM: John Tan: There is no way to describe the grey scale
14/5/13 9:43:24 PM: John Tan: Even in anatta there r so many different degree of refinements
14/5/13 9:43:34 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see
14/5/13 9:43:59 PM: John Tan: But it is not practical to talk abt all
14/5/13 9:44:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. U mean not describable
14/5/13 9:45:32 PM: John Tan: No...not that it is not describable but not practical to describe
14/5/13 9:46:48 PM: John Tan: Like AF is part of the deviation looking into purely physical flesh and blood of pure experience ... Some went into details some does not
14/5/13 9:47:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What do u mean by went into details
14/5/13 9:48:54 PM: John Tan: It is like I M, there r all those experiences u undergone but I do not say they r diff phases
14/4/13 7:35:01 PM: John Tan: When u say "weather", does weather exist?
14/4/13 7:35:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No
14/4/13 7:35:42 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's a convention imputed on a seamless activity
14/4/13 7:35:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Existence and non existence don't apply
14/4/13 7:36:02 PM: John Tan: What is the basis where this label rely on
14/4/13 7:36:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Rain clouds wind etc
14/4/13 7:36:25 PM: John Tan: Don't talk prasanga
14/4/13 7:36:36 PM: John Tan: Directly see
14/4/13 7:38:11 PM: John Tan: Rain too is a label
14/4/13 7:39:10 PM: John Tan: But in direct experience, there is no issue but when probed, u realized how one is confused abt the reification from language
14/4/13 7:39:52 PM: John Tan: And from there life/death/creation/cessation arise
14/4/13 7:40:06 PM: John Tan: And whole lots of attachment
14/4/13 7:40:25 PM: John Tan: But it does not mean there is no basis...get it?
14/4/13 7:40:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: The basis is just the experience right
14/4/13 7:41:15 PM: John Tan: Yes which is plain and simple
14/4/13 7:41:50 PM: John Tan: When we say the weather is windy
14/4/13 7:42:04 PM: John Tan: Feel the wind, the blowing...
14/4/13 7:43:04 PM: John Tan: But when we look at language and mistaken verb for nouns there r big issues
14/4/13 7:43:22 PM: John Tan: So before we talk abt this and that
14/4/13 7:43:40 PM: John Tan: Understand what consciousness is and awareness is
14/4/13 7:43:45 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:44:40 PM: John Tan: When we say weather, feel the sunshine, the wind, the rain
14/4/13 7:44:58 PM: John Tan: U do not search for weather
14/4/13 7:45:04 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:45:57 PM: John Tan: Similarly, when we say awareness, look into scenery, sound, tactile sensations, scents and thoughts
......................
"So what is one mind, what is no mind and what is original mind in this context? One mind is post non-dual but subsuming leaving trace. No mind is just one mind except that there is evenness till the last trace is gone. Like what explains in the text. Uji...all is time therefore no time. When you go from dual to non dual or one mind to no mind, those are stages and experiences... If u got the condition to get pointed out that originally there never was a mind, there are no stages to climb... that is original mind. This requires insights and wisdom." - John Tan, 2020
(Note by Soh: the original mind spoken here does not mean some unborn metaphysical primordial mind such as the I AM, but the originally, already-is nature of mind -- empty of itself -- "originally there never was a mind", empty of all self/Self)
......................
“[24/6/24, 2:04:33 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I told nafis “I personally think in stage 4, should ask people to contemplate the anatta stanzas already instead of waiting for stage 5” (Soh: on the two stanzas of anatta, see On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection (Available in Languages: AR, DA, DE, EN, ES, FR, HI, ID, IT, JA, KO, NE, PL, PT-BR, PT-PT, RU, SR, TA, TH, VI, ZH))
[24/6/24, 2:04:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: What do you think?
[24/6/24, 2:13:53 PM] Soh Wei Yu: image omitted
[24/6/24, 3:33:53 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I think its safer for them to just contemplate anatta straight rather than aim for one mind? To me one mind is the result of the lack of thoroughness of insight into no self, so no need to particularly aim for. Although i think many will go through it inadvertently <This message was edited>
[24/6/24, 3:38:52 PM] John Tan: Practitioner will almost without fail skewed towards one-mind because both subject and object are non-arisen is not understood. Therefore latching back to a mind and making it more ultimate despite non-dual experiences becomes the default.
[24/6/24, 3:39:05 PM] Soh Wei Yu: In my case there was a short one mind phase when i was contemplating no self, bahiya sutta, the borderlessness between awareness and manifestation, etc. not very clear cut
[24/6/24, 3:39:07 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I see
[24/6/24, 3:39:44 PM] John Tan: Yes
[24/6/24, 3:40:23 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah the nondual is there even before mind is thoroughly deconstructed and seen through
I think one can start contemplating on the two stanzas though soon after I AM (Soh: on the two stanzas of anatta, see On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection (Available in Languages: AR, DA, DE, EN, ES, FR, HI, ID, IT, JA, KO, NE, PL, PT-BR, PT-PT, RU, SR, TA, TH, VI, ZH))
[24/6/24, 3:40:45 PM] John Tan: Yes”
......................
[8:16 PM, 9/8/2020] John Tan: Cessation is important when u want to rid the Self but no way to do it...lol
[8:16 PM, 9/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[8:58 PM, 9/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: so one mind is phase 4 onwards?
[8:58 PM, 9/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: before phase 4 you also had glimpse of one mind right
[9:01 PM, 9/8/2020] John Tan: One mind doesn't matter dual or non-dual, it is just a subsuming tendency that the mind attempts to explain everything into an ultimate consciousness.
[9:02 PM, 9/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: oic.. so stage 2 [also can be stage 1] is also like one mind except dualistic
[9:02 PM, 9/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: stage 4 is like nondual but still have subsuming tendency so might not yet overcome one mind
[9:02 PM, 9/8/2020] John Tan: Yes.
[9:02 PM, 9/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic.. yeah i remember during I AM i also had subsuming tendency
[9:02 PM, 9/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: but [that I AM sort of one mind was somewhat] different from post nondual [as in, nondual sort of One Mind] but only really overcome subsuming after anatta
[9:03 PM, 9/8/2020] John Tan: Subsuming tendency is always beautiful to an inherent mind.
[9:03 PM, 9/8/2020] John Tan: 🤣
[9:04 PM, 9/8/2020] Soh Wei Yu: lol yeah
“Someone wrote on https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/permalink/3999299513444782/: Hey folks, thanks for allowing me to join this group. I'm currently ploughing through the epic tome that is 'Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind'. Right now I have consistent access to One Mind as an experience and periodic, but not consistent, access to No Mind as an experience. Judging by what I've read so far, the missing piece is deeper insight into anatta to make the flip from 'temporary experience' to 'baseline ground reality'. Over the last few months I've been practising a certain kind of letting go to cause the No Mind experience to arise more consistently, but I guess the AtR view is that this approach is somewhat mistaken and my time would be better spent contemplating anatta?
......................Geovani Geo Calls my attention the fact that you call the realization of I Am the same as One Mind.
I was a kid, didn't read or write yet, when suddenly I realized that "I Am the only one looking out from eyes, all others are seen from outside". But this insight was not accompanied by any notions of One MInd. I still felt as an entity looking out from the body. Nonetheless, this I Am (looking) had something genuine.
1
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 3h
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo ... for it was totally absent of concepts, thoughts.
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 3h
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu I AM and One Mind is different. This link should clarify our terminologies: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../differentiatin...
Rupert Spira in recent years had an even more mature insight (he said he realized it spontaneously while answering someone in a talk) into seeing how usually we think objects are seen and awareness is unseen but it's the complete opposite -- objects are never seen, only Awareness is ever seen, heard, touched, etc. This is mature All-Is-Mind insight venturing into No Mind. However I don't think anatta insight has arisen.
Manage
awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
1
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · Remove Preview · 3h
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo John Tan: "No mind is like the mirror becomes transparent and there is just that But the view is the reflection and the mirror is not the same. Like sky is not the flowing cloud"
The reflection and the mirror is not the same?
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 3h · Edited
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Means in no-mind, there is the direct experience that that mirror (consciousness) is the substance of reflection (sights/sounds/thoughts/etc), the experience is one of complete non-duality as manifestation, yet the 'view' is still not anatta, still subtly dualistic -- reflection is still seen as not the same as the unchanging mirror. So when analysing and expressing that experience he will use that dualistic framework to express it. Therefore the peak experience is not congruent with the view (the 'conceptual' framework) one holds, there is a desync between view and experience.
1
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 2h · Edited
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Ah... is he saying that the view is a smaller realization than No MInd? ic
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 2h · Edited
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu What I mean is that in between one mind and no mind the experience and realization gets refined but not yet the realization of anatta, that in seeing just the seen, 'seeing' (consciousness) is just the seen -- the colors, the manifestation, without a seer, no agent. Same goes for other senses.. 'awareness' is a label, empty of its own intrinsic existence that could exist on its own side.
When anatta is realized, then the experience of no-mind (as just manifestation) becomes in line or in sync with the anatta view. Then one can further expand that emptiness insight to mind/body, and nature of phenomena.
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 2h · Edited
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu View is the paradigm or framework in how consciousness is viewed in relation to phenomena, and the nature of consciousness and phenomena. One can have a completely nondual experience and yet the 'view' one holds is dualistic, therefore view and experience becomes incongruent/desynchronized, and the peak experience will not be stable and effortless.
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 2h · Edited
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Also as Thusness pointed out, the view aspect does not just pertain to subject/object duality but more importantly 'inherent existence'. One can overcome subject/object division but cling to 'inherent existence' of various kinds, so still subtly dualistic. Subject/object can be called a subset of the view of 'inherent existence' (pertaining to self, and to phenomena).
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 2h · Edited
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo I c. I just misread thusness statement. I didn't read it as "view" being a stage. I thought he was describing One Mind. That is why I found it strange.
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 2h · Edited
André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo view is not a stage, it's more like a structure, paradigm or even technique. It's the ideological or philosophical framework that supports the practice.
2
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 3h
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Yes, view is not the stage but the paradigm.
The direct realization of the right view of anatta, dependent origination and emptiness is Thusness Stage 5 and 6, you can say the 'realization' is a new phase or stage. Ultimately the emptiness view is a viewless view, it is not concept to be clung on to just like anatta is not a concept to be held but the negation, penetration or seeing through of a wrongly held framework that allows us to have the direct taste of empty radiance free from any mental proliferations. However one should contemplate dependent origination and emptiness and refine the insight into one's empty radiance. It is an important raft.
As Thusness wrote elsewhere,
"In my previous message, I mentioned abt anatta and spontaneous perfection as returning to one's natural and authentic condition because I hope u can see it from another angle.
To some, in the seen, just the seen sounded like a perfect state of concentration through long period of training and practice. To me however, the taste of anatta is the birthright, primordial and natural condition of one's clarity.
Seeing is just seen, no seer;
Hearing is just sound, no hearer. It is the gateway to realize the mundane is precisely where one's natural radiance is fully expressed. Nothing hidden, nothing beyond and fully manifested.
What does freedom from reification entail? It is to get rid of all "beyonds", all "backgrounds", all constructs so that we can recognize "face to face" of what seen, heard, touch ...etc as one's empty clarity, not to bring us to an unreachable la la Land.
So wherever and whenever I see dependent arising and emptiness, I see one's empty clarity.
Some can through seeing emptiness realized directly one's empty clarity, just like case of the insight of anatta but some can't.
If this isn't obvious, then separate pointing is necessary.
Lastly the true practice is in ceaselessly meeting conditions and situations, without that, there is no genuine actualization."
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 2h · Edited
Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Each stage has its own view (Paradigm/structure). Dualistic and inherent - I Am. Nondual but inherent - one mind~no mind. Nondual and non inherent - Anatta, dependent origination and emptiness (stage 5-6)
1
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 2h · Edited
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Its the present map. The map changes, though. At least it may. It is where the eagle points his beak - as D. Juan would say.
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 1h · Edited
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Thusness: we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds' a mistaken view shaping our entire experience.
This is something so relevant. We are limited by our view!
2
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 1h · Edited
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Wanna buy? I have a few shirts left.
WE ARE LIMITED BY OUR VIEWS
1
Manage
HahaShow more reactions
· Reply · 1h
André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo that's why right view is the 1st factor in the noble 8fold path; and why it is said that the 5 paramitas are blind in the absence of the 6th (wisdom). We can't experience freedom with a constricted (philosophical and existential) view.
2
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 1h
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Right. I just got the full meaning of the line:
"view, experience and realization"
This "route" is repeated in each stage.
2
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 56m
Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo but it is dynamic. The view evolves so, experience and realization also evolve according to the present view. Something like that...
2
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 52m
André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo yes, like Soh said above:
> Each stage has its own view (Paradigm/structure). Dualistic and inherent - I Am. Nondual but inherent - one mind~no mind. Nondual and non inherent - Anatta, dependent origination and emptiness (stage 5-6)
1
Manage
LikeShow more reactions
· Reply · 1h
....
In early 2010, before I realised anatta:
(11:12 PM) Thusness: u r using stage 4 understanding to explain 6
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic
(11:13 PM) Thusness: i am not interested in views
only the insight that allows u to understand the right view
(11:14 PM) Thusness: that is in phase 4, 'non-dual' is the insight
in phase 5, that observer is gone
(11:15 PM) Thusness: there is not only no 'in' here or out 'there' not because it is non-dual, but because there is no such observer at all.
anatta
(11:15 PM) Thusness: that is the 'insight' that must arise
(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) Thusness: just like what dharma dan said
(11:23 PM) Thusness: u do not deny subjective or object reality
(11:24 PM) Thusness: they are only provisional and conventional
(11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:25 PM) Thusness: but when the dualistic and inherent hears the term 'non-dual', they either visualize the 2 becoming one or 'you have become me'...
(11:25 PM) Thusness: because this is how a mind that is trapped would think despite the experience
(11:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:27 PM) Thusness: for what that is beyond the four extremes cannot be expressed adequately using language
so what that is important is the insights
(11:27 PM) Thusness: and see how one expresses these insights
(11:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:28 PM) Thusness: like joan tollifson
it is the direct experience
there is no view about it
(11:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness: means a practitioner will only experience hardness, softness, intentions, scenery, sound
no self
(11:30 PM) Thusness: action
directly
(11:31 PM) Thusness: but conventionally, u r still u, i am still me
(11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no such thing as u r me
get it?
(11:32 PM) Thusness: or there is an awareness that is sound
or all is just this awareness
there is no such concept
(11:32 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:33 PM) Thusness: there is sound, sight, thoughts
(11:33 PM) Thusness: and what u call awareness are just that
(11:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:34 PM) AEN: ya i talked about it in http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=13153&st=120#
(11:35 PM) Thusness: yeah but ur mind is thinking some awareness
or all are just this awareness
(11:35 PM) AEN: oic
(11:36 PM) Thusness: this is a dualistic way of understanding
though experience is non-dual
that is phase 4
(11:36 PM) AEN: sorry i mean post #126
oic
(11:36 PM) Thusness: that is treating winter as spring and spring as autumn
(11:36 PM) Thusness: that is treating fire as becoming ashes
(11:36 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:37 PM) Thusness: get it?
although u said that sound is awareness, u r still treating it as that.
(11:37 PM) Thusness: as if winter becomes spring
or winter is spring
(11:38 PM) Thusness: get it?
(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:38 PM) Thusness: it is different
for example dharma dan said there is just sensations, thoughts...the aggregates. whether super awareness or awareness. it is different from saying sensation is awareness, thoughts is awareness as if awareness has become thoughts
.....
...
[8:45 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: btw which year did you realise anatta? just curious lol.. 1997?
[8:51 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Lol yeah around there
[8:52 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic..
[8:52 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Anatta is not just non-dual
[8:54 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Unlike u, I have been stuck in one mind for quite some time. It is not easy to get rid of that trace.
[8:55 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: you were in one mind before 1997?
[8:55 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Without guidance, can take many years. Even then one may just b a state of no mind rather than anatta.
[8:57 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Yeah 1997 and before no mind also but clarity of view wasn't there. So it remains a form of experience rather than insight and realization.
[8:57 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: A state I mean.
[8:57 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Y?
[8:59 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: hmm... there is some insight into nondivision but not the emptiness of awareness, not anatta
[8:59 PM, 6/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: so you realised through contemplating the first stanza of anatta in 1997 but that was still followed by one mind and no mind for a few years?
[9:01 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: No...post anatta, the karmic tendency wasn't that strong anymore...maybe 1 year or so for one mind and no mind ...
[9:01 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: Before that overcoming of background is tough.
[9:02 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: I M was younger than u...lol. IM is at the age ard 15.🤣
[9:02 PM, 6/15/2020] John Tan: So u can see how long can one get stuck
[8:50 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: For me I have my own way of sorting out my view, experience and insights from Buddhist contexts. Where it starts and stops. I m not a follower of faith.
[8:50 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Whereas certain forms of madhyamika, longchenpa and tsongkhapa dont necessarily buy thus
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Prasangika do not care about mind at all
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Same for me post anatta...
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah in fact post anatta i resonate more with AF than yogacara 🤣
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: It is not that mind is not important in practice..
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Except i see in terms of dependent origination and emptiness now
[8:53 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In zen though they say there is no mind, they in fact embrace mind more fully than all is mind, until no trace of mind can b detected. Yet Shen Yen said this is just the entry point of zen because originally there is no mind and this is clearly realized in anatta. So post anatta, mind and phenomena r completely indisguishable.
If both mind and phenomena r completely indisguishable in experience, then distinctions r nothing more than conventional designation of empty luminous display.
[8:54 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. btw did sheng yen realise anatta?
[8:56 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: So u must know when we say no awareness, no self, no I, it doesnt mean nothing. It is seeing through the background construct and open the gate to directly taste, experience and effortless authenticate clarity.
[8:56 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: I believe so but he did not talk about his experience except the stanza before his death that is beautiful.
[8:57 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. didnt see his stanza before
[8:57 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah luminous aggregates
[8:58 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: That are also empty
[8:58 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: 无事忙中老,空里有哭笑,本来没有我,生死皆可抛” 台湾高僧圣严法师圆寂
(Busy with nothing till old. (无事忙中老)
In emptiness, there is weeping and laughing. (空里有哭笑)
Originally there never was any 'I'. (本来没有我)
Thus life and death can be cast aside. (生死皆可抛)) - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/11/differentiate-wisdom-from-art.html
[8:59 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic...[9:10 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Then u can't say phenomena is empty if u resonate with AF. AF is based on the concreteness of phenomena.
[9:12 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: If u say u resonate, then emptiness cannot b anywhere resonating at all.
[9:13 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In fact just opposite as in the eight similes of illusion.
[9:25 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I resonate with af in the sense that i do not see an ultimate Self or cosmic mind at all, or one mind or all is mind.. i only see luminous aggregates that are totally exerting as infinitude of universe and time
[9:26 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But yet not the same as AF because i see the eight examples of illusion as applying to these luminous aggregates
[9:27 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: There is nothing wrong resonating with AF
[9:27 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Just that u need to b clear, u can't b neither here nor there.
[9:27 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Mixing up everything
[9:28 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Basically like what ted biringer said about existence time except even that is empty
[9:28 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: So i dont see timeless formless absolute
[9:30 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: If u see anatta as de-construction of self, then deconstructing further into object is just a natural progression.
[9:31 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Unless one is stuck in seeing through self with experience and have insight of no self but did not know the cause of it.
[9:39 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[10:20 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Do u know the main different between sutrayana and vajrayana?
[10:24 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm says view are the same but path different
[10:24 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe vajrayana deals with energy
[10:25 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: That is the main difference
[10:25 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[10:26 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In fact all religions, science, new age or old age...lol ultimately must come to this
- Nick WilsonHey Soh, in terms of adopting a view, does what JT say point to "everything has the nature of awareness" over "everything appears in awareness"?
- Reply
- 11h
The Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra
The Lord Protector Rangjung Dorje
The Third Gyalwa Karmapa
Gurus and yidams, deities of the mandala,
Buddhas of the three times in the ten directions and your sons and daughters,
Please consider us with kindness and understanding, and
Grant your blessing that these aspirations may be accomplished exactly as we ask.
Of myself and all sentient beings without limit,
May the river of accumulated virtue of the threefold purity
Flow into the ocean of the four bodies of the Victorious Ones.
Through all my lifetimes, birth upon birth,
May not even the words "evil deeds" and "suffering" be heard
And may we enjoy the splendour
and goodness of oceans of happiness and virtue.
and conjunctions of the precious human existence,
endowed with faith, energy, and intelligence,
Having attended on a worthy spiritual friend
and received the pith of the holy instructions,
May we practice these properly, just as we have received them,
without obstacle or interruption.
In all our lives, may we practice and enjoy the holy dharma.
reasonings free us from the obscuration of not knowing,
Contemplating the oral instructions disperses the darkness of doubt.
In the light born of meditation what is shines forth just as it is.
May the brightness of the three prajnas grow in power.
which is the two truths free from the extremes of eternalism and nihilism
And by practising the supreme path of the two accumulations,
free from the extremes of exaggeration and denial,
Is attained the fruit of well-being for oneself and others,
free from the extremes of samsara and nirvana.
May all beings meet the dharma which neither errs nor misleads.
indivisible cognitive clarity and emptiness.
That which purifies is the great vajra yoga of mahamudra.
What is to be purified are the adventitious,
temporary contaminations of confusion,
May the fruit of purification, the stainless dharmakaya, be manifest.
Then keeping one's awareness unwavering in accordance with the view,
is the subtle pith of meditation.
Putting all aspects of meditation into practice is the supreme action.
The view, the meditation, the action--may there be confidence in these.
Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind
Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded,
manifesting as everything whatsoever.
Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut.
By the power of this dualistic fixation, beings wander in the realms of samsaric existence.
May ignorance, the root of confusion, he discovered and cut.
It is not nonexistent--it is the basis of all samsara and nirvana.
This is not a contradiction, but the middle path of unity.
May the ultimate nature of phenomena, limitless mind beyond extremes, he realised.
If one says, "This is not it," there is nothing to deny.
The true nature of phenomena,
which transcends conceptual understanding, is unconditioned.
May conviction he gained in the ultimate, perfect truth.
If it is realised, buddha is not anything other.
It is completely devoid of any "This is it," or "This is not it."
May this simple secret, this ultimate essence of phenomena,
which is the basis of everything, be realised.
Realisation is mind and confusion is mind.
Arising is mind and cessation is mind.
May all doubts about mind be resolved.
Unmoved by the winds of everyday busyness,
Knowing how to rest in the uncontrived, natural spontaneous flow,
May the practice of resting in mind's true nature be skilfully sustained.
And the unmoving waters of mind rest naturally.
Free from dullness, torpor, and, murkiness,
May the ocean of shamatha be unmoving and stable.
The meaning which cannot be seen is vividly seen, just as it is.
Thus cutting doubts about how it is or is not,
May the unconfused genuine self-nature he known by self-nature itself.
Looking at mind, its empty nature devoid of mind is seen;
Looking at both of these, dualistic clinging is self-liberated.
May the nature of mind, the clear light nature of what is, be realised.
Free from extremes, it is the great middle way, madhyamika.
The consummation of everything, it is also called the great perfection, dzogchen.
May there be confidence that by understanding one,
the essential meaning of all is realised.
Luminosity free from fixation on characteristics is unobscured.
Nonthought transcending conceptual mind is spontaneous presence.
May the effortless enjoyment of these experiences be continuous.
Negative thoughts and confusion purify naturally in ultimate space.
In ordinary mind there is no rejecting and accepting, loss and gain.
May simplicity, the truth of the ultimate essence of everything, be realised.
Not realising that, they wander in endless samsara.
For the boundless suffering of sentient beings
May unbearable compassion be conceived in our being.
In expressions of loving kindness,
the truth of its essential emptiness is nakedly clear.
This unity is the supreme unerring path.
Inseparable from it, may we meditate day and night.
Sentient beings are ripened and buddha fields are perfectly purified,
The aspirations that accomplish the qualities of a buddha are fulfilled.
By bringing these three to utmost fruition-fulfilling,
ripening and purifying-may utmost buddhahood be manifest.
and their sons and daughters,
And by the power of all the pure virtue that exists,
May the pure aspirations of myself and all sentient beings
Be accomplished exactly as we wish.
- John Tan:
- I told u about 3 points that u must see through in conceptualities:
1. Vase is empty of vase
2. Vase is empty of the inherentness of vase
3. Division
Anurag is talking abt one of them -- vase is empty of vase. Nagasena told king Milinda that there is no "chariot" that can be found anywhere ultimately but obviously Nagasena is ferried by what we conventionally designated as "chariot". When u look at yourself there is no "Soh" or any identity u can point to yet obviously there is the mere appearances. There is no cause and effect but there is functioning. So what exactly is "de-constructed" here?
Is this same of different from the de-construction of "hearer hearing sound" in anatta? Like "mover and movement", "lightning flashes", "thunder roars".
Lastly, why is life designated as "life" and not the beginning of death? Where exactly is the line of demarcation? Like the question I asked you "this moment ceases as it arises, does it arise or does it cease"? In experience, where exactly is the line that divides subject and object?
The deconstruction on these 3 aspects of conceptualities can yield different experiences and u have to discern them with clarity. - Reply
- 33m
- Edited


Soh Wei Yu
the Witness collapses after the gestalt of arisings are seen through in Direct Path. Objects, as you have already mentioned, should have been thoroughly deconstructed before. With objects and arisings deconstructed there is nothing to be a Witness of and it collapses.
1
· Reply
· 1m
[3:46 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Not true. Object and arising can also collapse through subsuming into an all encompassing awareness.
[3:48 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: yeah but its like nondual
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: means after the collapse of the Witness and arising, it can be nondual
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but still one mind
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: right?
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but then atmananda also said at the end even the notion of consciousness dissolves
[3:49 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: i think thats like one mind into no mind but im not sure whether it talks about anatta
[3:50 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Yes.
[3:57 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
where is the notion of "all encompassing awareness". Sounds like awareness is being reified as a container.
· Reply
· 5m
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
also when you say Consciousness dissolves, you have to first answer how did it ever exist in the first place? 🙂
· Reply
· 4m
[3:57 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: lol
[4:01 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: In subsuming there is no container-contained relationship, there is only Awareness.
[4:03 PM, 1/1/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Anurag Jain
So Soh Wei Yu
how does Awareness "remain"? Where and how?
· Reply
· 1m
[4:04 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: Anyway this is not for unnecessary debates, if he truly understands then just let it be.
.....
"Yes. Subject and object can both collapsed into pure seeing but it is only when this pure seeing is also dropped/exhausted that natural spontaneity and effortlessness can begin to function marvelously. That is y it has to be thorough and all the "emphasis". But I think he gets it, so u don't have to keep nagging 🤣." - John Tan
- Reply
- 8h
- Reply
- 8h
- Reply
- 8h
- Reply
- 8h
- Reply
- 8h
- Edited
- Reply
- 8h
- Reply
- 8h
- Reply
- 8h
......
Soh Wei Yu
badge icon
Author
Anurag Jain
Knower and known are one can be either one mind, no mind or anatta. There are different insights
If one realises as TNH says — there is no knowing besides those dynamic phenomena, that is anatta. No lightning besides flash.
· Reply
· 7h
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
why the name "One Mind". One with respect to what.? You can call a substance one.
· Reply
· 7h · Edited
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
in One Mind, phenomena occur IN awareness.
· Reply
· 7h
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
I am talking about phenomena being Awareness.
· Reply
· 7h
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
lightning is a conceptual label (also Awareness) flash is not independent of seeing itself and therefore Awareness itself.
· Reply
· 7h
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
In the movie analogy, the light reflected from screen which shows different appearances on the screen is awareness. Now can you tell me if that light is different from the appearance? Is it one way dependence or two way dependence? Appearances are light and light is appearances.
· Reply
· 7h · Edited
Soh Wei Yu
badge icon
Author
Phenomena being Awareness is also in post nondual one mind, to no mind.
Anatta is also seeing there is no seeing independent of appearance. There is nothing ultimate about “Awareness”. It is just a convention for luminous empty appearance
Like lightning is just a convention for flash
· Reply
· 7h
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
can you please say where I am differing from you in your statement above?
· Reply
· 7h
Soh Wei Yu
badge icon
Author
Anurag Jain
Not sure i get your analogy right. Are you saying light is none other than the reflection/appearance?
Also “causes different appearance” seems to imply a source, some cause effect which you refuted, so i dont think thats your point.
There is no one light being refracted into many, otherwise that is one mind
· Reply
· 7h
Soh Wei Yu
badge icon
Author
Shinshu Roberts wrote the following, “Since our activity is not a progression from delusion to enlightenment made solely by the independent self, Dogen defines the first thought of practice as 'immediate present ultimate Dharma' or genjokoan: the presence and perfection of all dharmas as they are in the here-and-now.'
Hee-Jin Kim further explains the meaning of genjokoan: 'It does not suggest an evolutionary ascent from hidden-ness to manifestation, or from imperfection to perfection, or conversely, an emanational descent from one to many, or from reality to appearance. Rather, things, events, beings are already unmistakably what they truly are; what is more, they are vibrant, transparent, and bright in their as-they-are-ness.'”
· Reply
· 7h
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
yes. I am saying light is appearance itself.
Sorry for my use of word causes. Please ignore. Wrong choice of words.
1
· Reply
· 7h
Soh Wei Yu
badge icon
Author
Anurag Jain
Then i have no issues with that.
15/4/13 12:53:28 AM: John Tan: Anatta is a realization that there isn't a consciousness besides sound, scenery...etc
15/4/13 12:56:15 AM: John Tan: U c through reification of that agent and get in touch with the base manifestation where the label rely upon
15/4/13 12:57:02 AM: John Tan: So sound is the actual consciousness is referring to
15/4/13 12:57:36 AM: John Tan: There is no consciousness other than that
15/4/13 1:01:13 AM: John Tan: When they see through reification, then phenomena has a different meaning
15/4/13 1:02:04 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as awareness is not one mind
15/4/13 1:02:52 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as the same unchanging mind is the problem
15/4/13 1:04:09 AM: John Tan: When u c through reification, u realized "awareness" is just a label point to these manifestations
15/4/13 1:04:32 AM: John Tan: So there is nothing wrong saying that
15/4/13 1:05:24 AM: John Tan: Only when we treat awareness to b of true existence then we r deluded because there isn't any
15/4/13 1:11:14 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
15/4/13 1:11:36 AM: John Tan: In hearing, there is only sound
15/4/13 1:11:57 AM: John Tan: Hearing implies the presence of sound
1
· Reply
· 7h
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
Good. Thanks for the discussion. It's great to have a friend in you with whom I can discuss these things. There are really few with whom I can 🙂
1
· Reply
· 7h
[6:15 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: I think he is quite clear on that
[6:32 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: What abt mind freeing itself from notions of anything for example existence, physicality, cause and effect? How is this different from the insight of agency-action?
[9:12 PM, 1/1/2021] John Tan: I m more interested in the insight, clarity and experiences that come from seeing through notions vs agency. If there is clear insights and experiential tastes that come from seeing through them, then the difference is clearly seen.
They r very different sort of de-construction like phases of insights from I M to spontaneous perfection. This is also very important for u. I do not want to keep asking u also, tired🤣.
Anurag Jain
Soh Wei Yu
, agency is not there in me at all. The concrete experience I have at this time is that of "non abidance" There is no landing point. Only seeing, hearing, tasting. My experience of luminosity and spaciousness/transparency keeps getting refined. It deepens, stabilizes and then becomes normal till the next wave comes.
1
· Reply
· 4h
Soh Wei Yu
badge icon
Author
John Tan: That is good. Insights r to abolish any artificial divisions and constructs (man made) into natural spontaneity. So don't over focus or after any states, not even transparency otherwise will result in energy imbalances.
· Reply
· 5m - Reply
- 4h
- Reply
- 4h
- Reply
- 4h
- Reply
- 4h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 1h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h
- Edited
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h
- Reply
- 3h







I think I am clear on difference between no mind and one mind. But I am still not clear about how no mind is different from Anatta. Does not Anatta already imply no mind and vice versa?
In no-mind, the sense of a background Self, awareness, seer, hearer, is gone and instead the awareness is just the sound, the sight, the everything.
But it can just be a peak experience. Means, the sense of Self/background can be dissolved momentarily and returns later on. Having an experience where sense of self and background dissolves temporarily is not the same as having an insight that there never actually was an Agent/Background.
Anatta is a dharma seal, a 'truth' of what is always already the case. No-mind becomes effortless after anatta realization.
For Anatta realization, it is suddenly realized that in seeing there's always only the seen with no seer, in hearing there's always only the heard with no hearer, and same for all other senses. Until it is suddenly realized that the whole structure of Seer-Seeing-Seen doesn't apply and there is no seeing besides colors -- no seer, no hearing besides sound -- no hearer, no awareness besides manifestation. This is not just realising the lack of borders or duality but realizing the Absence of an inherently existing Self/Agent/Awareness behind manifestation. It's seeing that the 'Background' never existed. This is the realization of anatta.
When not enough merit/good karma , and fruits of realization wont get ripe in dis present life, should one focus on volunteering, charity and selfless service?
That is good, but perhaps it will be more helpful to focus on one's self inquiry and meditation. You can do both.
Also, there are differing degrees of merits from different actions.
Read this teaching by Buddha if you are interested in merits - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.020.than.html
AN 9.20: Velāma Sutta: About Velāma
"This sutta lists in order of least to greatest fruitfulness:
An unimaginably large alms offering < feeding a stream enterer < feeding a once-returner < feeding a nonreturner < feeding an arahant < feeding a paccekabuddha < feeding a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha < feed the Saṅgha headed by a Buddha < build a monastery for the Saṅgha < undertaking the 5 precepts and go for Refuge in the Triple Gem < develop a mind of loving-kindness even for the time it takes to pull a cow's udder < develop the perception of impermanence just for the time it takes to snap one's fingers
For the last two, loving-kindness and impermanence, developing them is more fruitful than all those preceding it combined. It goes to show how fruitful it is for us householders to develop the perception of impermanence, even if for just the time it takes to snap one's fingers!"
When you practice "volunteering, charity and selfless service", which is very good, you should practice opening your heart and metta rather than be attached to actions and results.