Jared K Jones:

I would say that after thorough investigation, there are reasons in terms of philosophy, physics, and direct observation to think that  these sorts of phenomena are not mere descriptive fancy, nor so-called “skillful” lies to gain followers.

For practical examples, look at monks who do Tummo. They generate heat in a part of the body where there is no physical basis for such heat. Then they manipulate that heat at will and move it up the spinal column.

There was also a case of a very old Hindu yogi who attained Samadhi and stopped eating or drinking. He was studied by doctors in a continuous isolation chamber for 10 days, who concluded that - not only was he not dying of starvation or dehydration - he was in great health.

Further, we now have - thanks to the Dalai Lama - brain scans of yogis who have held themselves in the post-death state for several weeks. They didn’t decompose and had brain activity after death for extended periods of time, indicating consciousness when the body is medically dead.

The marathon monks of Mt. Hiei who have committed to the 7 year cycle only eat one small meal a day, a starvation died of 900-1,200 calories, while hiking between 6-16 hours a day. They should be dead, medically speaking.

We also have accounts from modern times like those found in “Yogis of Tibet” where high lamas exhibit extraordinary miracles, like leaving footprints in solid rock.

Milarepa famously did this same demonstration many times for students, to show that the external world is merely a manifestation of mind. When the mind is fully tamed and awakened, the external world is entirely fluid. His handprint - from one of his meditation caves - is attached.

Great masters often also generate relics and signs in the ashes of their funeral pyres: pearls, handprints, pieces of jade, and so on. Having known people through the grape vine who have been involved in the collection of such relics, it is done with the utmost integrity.

When you read Vimalakirti, this is not allegorical or simply a creative narrative, in my view. In relativity, the observer is at the center. Events are different physically for different observers: different numbers of particles, different speeds in time, different sizes, different sequences of events, and so on.

For one observer, x happens first, then y. For another, y first, then x. For another, xy happens at the same time. And in one perspective, neither happens. All four can occur simultaneously with regards to the same so-called “external” thing. This is just Western physics!

So, when Vimalakirti causes the room to expand or mountain chairs to appear from other realms, there is no reason that his should effect the perception of the surrounding people living in the city around him. It’s simply the activity which is possible for a mind which has realized the objects of experience are inseparable from a creative-knowing factor.

Honestly, it took me a long time looking at emptiness, the conventional nature of mind, and modern physics - as well as examples like the above - to say that these things are most likely true. I’m about 80% convinced.


Andersine Thank you! It saddens me to see Buddhists rejecting these ideas based upon our current scientific-materialist mythology.

Stanford professors are literally saying, “Is there a universe when we aren’t looking?”

And saying “Information is what the universe is made of, and information is merely mental. So, the universe is fundamentally mental.”

And we have Einstein saying (paraphrased), “The physical properties of the events depend on the observer, not only the event itself. The event can happen physically in two different ways simultaneously, depending upon two different reference frames.”

This is our own culture telling us it’s non-dual! It’s empty of self-character. The physical matter is empty and only arises with the observer. Time is empty and only occurs from a reference frame.

There is no “past event” which determines what happens now! It’s physically a different universe for all observers. Western physicists at major universities are (quite literally) saying these things.


Session Start: Tuesday, April 17, 2007

(11:14 PM) AEN:    btw wat u think about the supernatural topic (someone trained in shamatha asking for advice on development of siddhis/powers)
(11:14 PM) AEN:    lol
(11:16 PM) Thusness:    i wish i can discuss with him but he is not the person for me to discuss. :)
(11:16 PM) AEN:    huh why
(11:16 PM) Thusness:    anyway unless i am an irresponsible person, i will not discuss such thing in public forum.
(11:17 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:17 PM) AEN:    why is he not for u to discuss
(11:17 PM) Thusness:    though i would very much like to.
(11:17 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:18 PM) Thusness:    infact i have been looking for someone that have perfected non-duality to writing something about non locality, i have told u b4.
(11:18 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:18 PM) AEN:    so wat r u saying.. u wan to discuss supernatural powers and non locality with someone?
(11:18 PM) AEN:    as in someone non dual
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    someone that has deep experience in non duality. :)
(11:19 PM) AEN:    icic.. so tats why u don wan to discuss with the forum guy? cos he's not non dual yet?
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    i do not wish to tok to ppl in samatha meditation.
(11:19 PM) AEN:    why
(11:20 PM) Thusness:    and only when i know the person is already enlightened. :)
(11:20 PM) Thusness:    otherwise there is no point.
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    and i do not want ppl to misinterpret the nature of these experiences.
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    i also do not like ppl to bullshit about these experiences.
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    and also do not like ppl to make fun of these experiences.
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    lol
(11:21 PM) AEN:    what u mean by bullshit and make fun
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    i might leave something b4 my i die.
(11:21 PM) AEN:    leave what?
(11:22 PM) Thusness:    my experiences and how to get access to it after non-duality.
(11:22 PM) AEN:    oic wat sort of experiences?
(11:22 PM) Thusness:    u r not enlightened yet. :P
(11:22 PM) AEN:    about supernatural powers? lol
(11:23 PM) Thusness:    yeah. :)
(11:23 PM) Thusness:    ur mind is not stable yet.
(11:23 PM) AEN:    oic btw wats the uses of supernatural powers.. how can supernatural power help one and others
(11:24 PM) AEN:    my mind not stable means?
(11:25 PM) Thusness:    with ur current state of mind, u will not be able to correctly absorb in whatever aspect.
(11:26 PM) Thusness:    whatever that is necessary are already stated in sutras
(11:26 PM) Thusness:    there is really no point bringing it out to discuss.
(11:26 PM) Thusness:    what one experiences for me is to break the perceptual bond that prevent us from knowing some subtle aspects of our mind.
(11:27 PM) Thusness:    that is too difficult to break by merely just accepting things.
(11:28 PM) Thusness:    the way to access to paranormal experiences differs.
(11:28 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:28 PM) Thusness:    however for one that has stabilize non dual path, it is the natural progression to experience something non-local
(11:28 PM) Thusness:    some non-local aspect of our nature.
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    to understand our nature.
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    what good is there really to discuss the non local aspect of it besides that?
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    i do not like to call it supernatural power.
(11:29 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    u can c that i seldom call it so.
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    i call it non local aspects of our nature.
(11:30 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    as it is part of our nature.
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    in line with emptiness.
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    i do not like to deviate from the profound teachings of emptiness.
(11:30 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    of our nature. :)
(11:31 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    that is why i also do not wish to discuss with anyone that is on concentration.
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    coz it is not about wisdom and our nature.
(11:32 PM) AEN:    btw theres difference rite between someone who gain those powers from concentration, and those who become enlightened and those so called powers actually arise from prajna?
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    if u want to know, know what is our nature and practice.
(11:32 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    i do not know, i have not discussed with them. :)

(11:36 PM) Thusness:    first is the realisation.
(11:36 PM) AEN:    what u mean
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    u must realise what is meant by non duality.
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    what is no-self
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    realisation.
(11:37 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    like longchen
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    experience it.
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    then ur dualistic thought will continue to confuse u.
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    it is not easy to overcome
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    until it has sunk so deep into ur consciousness
(11:37 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    that one day ur realisation and action become one...
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    somehow u 'see' the pathless path towards non dual at every moment.
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    but due to attachments, the experience of non duality through wisdom will not be thorough.
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    so u must practice the other 5 paramitas
(11:39 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:40 PM) Thusness:    then non dual in action can become one....to clear other forms of attachments and to further experience our boundless nature.
(11:40 PM) Thusness:    but some of these bonds can be cleared if one is able to have non local experiences.
(11:40 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:41 PM) Thusness:    certain attachments will subside due to these experiences.
(11:41 PM) Thusness:    but the practice of the other 5 parimatas are more thorough.
(11:41 PM) Thusness:    non local aspects of our nature if without sufficient wisdom will have side effects.
(11:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:42 PM) AEN:    what side effects
(11:42 PM) AEN:    5 paramitas how does it help
(11:42 PM) AEN:    in non attachment?
(11:42 PM) Thusness:    to me side effects is always creating perceptual bond on other aspects.
(11:42 PM) Thusness:    u eliminate one and u add 3.
(11:42 PM) Thusness:    :)
(11:42 PM) AEN:    oic...
(11:43 PM) Thusness:    if non local aspects is experienced and u unknowingly add to our ego other form of bonds, then it is quite difficult to break.
(11:44 PM) Thusness:    coz it was caused by non local experiences.
(11:44 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:44 PM) AEN:    u mean like being identified/attached to having supernatural powers?
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    one of them.
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    or u may visit other realms and get attached?
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    or u may contact spirits and be attached and dwell with them...
(11:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    u do not know... when u dwell...
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    u may sink into deeper illusion into the realm that u have created without knowing
(11:46 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    it is not just a matter of ego. :)
(11:47 PM) AEN:    yea teacher chen said
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    it is our wisdom and clarity have not penetrated to the depth of seeing through these states.


  • Soh Wei Yu Supernatural powers does exist and is not just magical thinking. But whether all stories are mythical or actually happened is another story. But as for siddhis, many people including John Tan has had experiences with them, various kinds. I have only very limited experiences with them compared to the other yogis, and mainly of a clairvoyant nature. I shall digress and just refer to others on this matter.



    Daniel M. Ingram wrote:


    ...As to crazy-ass experiences, here's a very short list: moving flames around with my mind with very Ghost-Busters-style energy blasts that accompanied the force that moved the flame, endless OBE stuff and lucid dream stuff, some of which was straight off the cushion and back to the cushion, predicting my wife having a car accident 4 years later accurately, hearing and seeing all manner of stuff (from British women chatting in their parlor about the news on the tele to pit preachers on Sunday morning talking about how the Buddhists in the monastery I was staying in would all go to Hell, and much, much more), have very profound and powerfully explanatory past-life experiences, have some bilocation-type experiences, being able to put my "ghost-hand" through a wall with all awareness and sensation perception then embodied in that rather than my usual body, being able to call up beyond-orgasmic bliss to roll through my body, being able to know to hit the breaks to slow down before I could possible see the deer about to run out in front of me on the way driving home, being able to make people do or stop doing various things (very grey morality territory here), being able to see and manipulate the energy channels in my body, being able to know who has called while the phone is ringing sometimes (lots of people can do that, actually), banishing a demon or two (whatever that means), and the endless crazy A&P stuff with my body exploding into energy and fire-works like experiences, bright lights, seeing through closed eye-lids, shaking, traveling, and many other strange things like that. There are more subtle magicks: long-range formally-cast intentions to have certain situations resolve within certain parameters, being able to feel what the person I was giving a back rub to was feeling and where the pain was, resolutions to have various jhanic experiences happen or to get stream entry or whatever, general subtle-energy manipulation in my body, rooms, situations, interactions, conversations, and even more subtle things: strange intuitions about how things will go, about what to do or not do in a certain situation. Even at times the musical things I write that just show up and seem unbidden seem magickal, but that's probably not what you were after.

    While obviously this stuff is quite interesting, in the end, as they all say and are right, it is actually things like finishing the process of insight and being kind, wise in a relative way, and helpful that make the most difference in terms of how good your life will be, though those things can help with that, if used properly and kept in perspective, which for some, like me, takes seeing them so many times I finally got somewhat (though not completely) bored by them. In short, if you have some powers experience, don't quit your day job.


    Also see interview: DY 008 – “Meditation, Magick, and the Fire Kasina” – with guest Daniel Ingram

    Thusness liked this article: http://integrateddaniel.info/magick-and-the-brahma-viharas/
  • On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis
    On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis
    On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis
  • Soh Wei Yu Also, check out this book:


    She was not a trained yogi before her nde but her nde itself and recovery was very miraculous

    It is an interesting book a new york times bestseller
  • Dying to be Me by Anita Moorjani
    Dying to be Me by Anita Moorjani
    Dying to be Me by Anita Moorjani
  • Soh Wei Yu A post by Daniel Ingram this year -

    “Might check out the book Real Magic, by Dean Radin, as well as some others, such as Supernormal and Entangled Minds, that is if you are interested in entertaining arguments that this stuff has long been proven and
    people just continue to reject it for fixed-paradigmatic/dogmatic reasons.

    Might get your concentration strong, like really strong, and see what happens, as there is nothing like doing the experiment yourself to inform questions and views. That is always more satisfying than reading some words on an internet forum, and can lead to other benefits as well. Basically, if you actually care about this stuff, care about it in a way that gives you the benefits that deep, caring practice leads to. If you don't actually care that much, consider moving to a forum that is more for theoretical discussions and skepticism than practice. Talk is cheap but also typically unsatisfying in these areas for all concerned.

    Haven't had anything in particular to do with Actualism in years, but did derive some interesting results from my experiments with it, and definitely don't regret that period of my practice, though I am happy that politics isn't happening now like it was then.

    Best wishes,

  • Soh Wei Yu Ken Wilber, Integral Meditation:

    “These examples also point out that some of the “narrative” forms of religion that we talked about earlier are holdovers from this early Magic period in our evolution, because they take quite literally the miraculous s
    tories in the Bible, for example (such as Moses parting the Red Sea). Even to this day, some adults are attracted to magical elements in their religion—they likely got involved with the religion in the first place because they are drawn to acts like magically walking on water, raising the dead, making the blind see, turning water into wine, and multiplying loaves and fishes. The religious practices of some sects might include things like handling live poisonous snakes, with the belief that their faith will magically protect them. (Unfortunately, a leader of one of the largest of these sects recently died, in his early 40s, after being bitten by a rattlesnake in one of these rituals.) And some present-day spiritual approaches, such as those described in The Secret and What the Bleep Do We Know? contain a heavy dose of this magic, which appeals, as we will see, to what’s called the egocentric or self-aggrandizing aspect of ourselves. This fantasy magic is a hidden

    map in much of the “law of attraction” and several other New Age notions. Now, this infantile word-magic is quite different from actual paranormal capacities, such as real ESP, precognition, or telekinesis, or the value of a strongly held intention in achieving one’s goals. Strictly controlled scientific experiments have demonstrated, beyond a reasonable doubt, that some of these capacities are indeed very real.2 (footnote reference to Dr Roger Walsh, researcher in consciousness studies and related fields) But the success at these paranormal capacities seems to dramatically go down when the person is motivated by purely selfish, egocentric, narcissistic, or power drives. There’s a big difference between fantasy magic and real psychic capacities, so do keep that in mind. Now, you might have some of these essentially magical superstitious notions, but you can easily tell whether they are magical hidden maps, and not real psychic powers, by noting how many self-aggrandizing motivations are also occurring around the magic notions. If they are wishes for nothing but your own glorification, your own success, your own specialness, or for beating out all others for the prize, and you are using magical practices (which are essentially a form of exaggerated wish-fulfillment), then you might very well have a fair amount of your awareness stuck at this early stage, this magical, fantasy, egocentric stage. If so, you will take up meditation to marvelously increase your own greatness, or magically bring you boons (getting the girl, the car, the new house, the promotion), or cause you to automatically lose weight and become irresistibly gorgeous, and miraculously give you all your own egoic desires just like that!, and basically put you first and foremost in all the world (yikes!). If you have a fair number of these magical beliefs, the recommendation, of course, will be to recognize them, to recognize that hidden map in your life, see how much of your life these superstitious magical beliefs are governing, and then hold them up to direct awareness, bringing them under the sunlight of pure mindfulness and radiant presence, thus turning them into mere objects of awareness. See these beliefs as objects in your mindfulness field instead of using them as subjects, as hidden maps with which you see the world. Look at them, not through them. Look directly and intensely at them—stop looking through them or with them. Videotape them to death.”
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