Session Start: Saturday, March 14, 2009

(11:50 PM) AEN:    'Nevertheless it is a very key phase'
u mean very important key phase?
(11:51 PM) Thusness:    yeah
(11:52 PM) AEN:    icic..
btw wats the difference between stage 4 and 5 other than stabilizing non dual
(11:54 PM) Thusness:    u need to face the problem to know
it is not in words
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    because u have not experienced non-division
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    so u do not know what is non divison
(11:55 PM) Thusness:    what is no-doership and what is no agent in experience
(11:56 PM) Thusness:    and it is difficult to know what is that 'marks' that prevent the experience of spontaneity
(11:56 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    there is a difference seeing thinker/thoughts as one
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    and hearer/sound as one
then sound is awareness, no hearer
(11:58 PM) Thusness:    stage 4 is more like hearer/sound as one
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    that is why i said one thought, then another thought
just like u, u said u feel like an open space
(11:59 PM) Thusness:    then u hear sound
sound and awareness seem to be one
(11:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    indistinguishable but u cannot have that experience that there is only sound
only in logic u have but not in experience
(12:00 AM) Thusness:    until one day u mature that experience
(12:01 AM) AEN:    icic..
just now i saw a website from truthz's blog lists
i mean not truthz's blog but the blog link appeared in his
(12:02 AM) AEN:
Correct Understanding - the first of the eight aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path - arises out of noticing the impermanent, unsatisfactory, and impersonal nature of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and tactile objects. When all these phenomena are realized to be not self, the mind will turn inwards, seeking out what it might cling to as ‘me’. But if it looks with absolute clarity it will find emptiness. Behind sensations, feelings, thoughts, and consciousness, there lies clear, endless space. I sometimes call it ‘Buddha Space’.
(12:05 AM) Thusness:    yeah
that is wrong view.
(12:05 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:06 AM) Thusness:    it is very difficult to see the truth of this until our insight matures
even at stage 4, it can be difficult but it is already the first steps towards anatta
(12:06 AM) AEN:    difficult to what
see anatta?
(12:06 AM) Thusness:    yeah
(12:06 AM) AEN:    oic
(12:07 AM) Thusness:    u must see the no agent
not only no division
(12:07 AM) Thusness:    like i told u there are 3 stages
(12:08 AM) Thusness:    later into just this non-dual luminosity
(12:09 AM) Thusness:    if u ask non-dualists, they will not realise that they are an arising thought
(12:09 AM) Thusness:    like what jeff foster said
(12:09 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:10 AM) Thusness:    they will feel damn ultimate
(12:10 AM) AEN:    ic..
like brahman
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    yes so they see self
not events, process phenomena
(12:12 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    they see brahman, not sunyata
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    even the experiences are very similar
the insight has not matured into anatta
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    like shingon sort of practice, the experience can be said to be maha like
but it is not the maha sort of experience i am talking about
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    it is oneness sort of experience
but it is a stage
(12:14 AM) Thusness:    what i said is oneness is always there
(12:14 AM) Thusness:    when one realises that presence is always a manifestation and full embodiment of interconnectedness
(12:15 AM) Thusness:    no effort needs to be done to induce a maha experience

(12:23 AM) Thusness:    there are few conditions to experience maha as a ground
(12:23 AM) Thusness:    1. mature in non-dual experience
2. DO (dependent origination)
(12:24 AM) Thusness:    3.  experience and understand that 'interconnectedness' is the universe itself
then 'self' and even non dual becomes quite irrelevant
(12:25 AM) Thusness:    in fact now presence is not understand as non-dual to me.
(12:26 AM) Thusness:    but as DO
(12:26 AM) Thusness:    where non-dual is already included
3 Responses
  1. Anonymous Says:

    This is the same as surrender,surrender to what is ....

  2. Anonymous Says:

    The Wanderer

    I have traveled so far
    And for so long
    That none could conceive it possible.

    My Journey of aeons and lifetimes
    Has taken me through
    Crystal palaces of exquisite splendor
    Where I played with courtesans
    The likes of which this world
    Has never seen.

    I have led armies into battle
    Been slain and conquered a million times. 

    I have ridden bareback on mythical beasts
    Exploring worlds of unimaginable beauty.
    I've bathed in enchanted pools under cooling moonlight
    And lived with the nymphs who dwell in those places. 

    I have dived to the depths of oceans
    And fought with the mighty beasts
    Who dwell in the deep.

    I have explored the four corners of space,
    Spent lifetimes in silent ecstasy
    Breathing in and out with the stars.

    I have fallen through the earth
    And been held captive in the most cruel of places.
    I have been cut and tormented,
    Had my life ripped away
    And been revived in places of daggers and pain.

    I have been swept along in rivers of molten flame,
    Burned until I could no longer recognize 
    Even my own body. 
    Fought, fought and fought,
    Killed and been killed
    Spending aeons in fear, rage and fury.

    I have taken animal form,
    Run with the wolves
    And howled at the moon in the depths of night.

    I have been killed a million, million times,
    Loved and lost through bitter heart ache
    As my love left me for another life
    More times than I care to recall.

    I have had Sons, Daughters,
    Wives, Husbands, Harems.

    I have lived through the greed of owning one million palaces
    The hatred of murdering one million men
    The love of devoting myself entirely to a precious few.

    The self obsession of the inglorious "I".

    Misery, torment, abandonment,
    Fear, loneliness, isolation, grief... joy.
    I have lived through them all
    I have lived in them all!

    There is not one place in this entire universe I have not visited,
    Or one thing I have not owned...
    And yet, 
    I stand here before you
    Empty handed and alone.
    An old man at the end of his travels,
    Weary of adventure
    And seeking peace...

    A place to call home.

    The road is not less traveled!
    We play this mighty game of life and death
    Never stopping to question
    Or pause to think...

    The question is not "When will it stop?".
    The question is "When will we stop?".
    When will we search for home?
    Listen to that quiet, quiet voice
    Which tells us to be still.
    To awaken.
    To see that,
    From the highest palace,
    To the deepest hell.
    It has all been  - but a dream

    We have been dreaming.

    *Wake up my friends
    and find peace.

  3. Soh Says:


    (10:55 PM) Thusness: when someone surrender and accept, what are they accepting and surrendering?
    (10:56 PM) AEN: everything arising moment to moment
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: yes
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: the moment to moment of manifestation.
    (10:56 PM) AEN: icic
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: that spontaneously arises and ceases
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: now is there true acceptance and surrendering?
    (10:57 PM) AEN: yes
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: there isn't.
    (10:57 PM) AEN: how come
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: this is because consciousness works through insight.
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: as long as it cannot 'see', it is still bonded.
    (10:58 PM) AEN: orh icic yea so after non dual insight than can accept isnt it.. cos one no longer sees dualistically
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: so deep most in consciousness, it cannot accept with totality.
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: so what is true is insight and realisation.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: only when there is true insight, there is spontaneity and liberation.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: what is manifestation?
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: it is the source.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: what is appearance?
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: it is our buddha nature.
    (11:01 PM) Thusness: Total acceptance is an illusion in the deep most sense. When there is the realisation that manifestation is already the source, there is no surrendering nor acceptance.
    (11:01 PM) Thusness: there is just one whole happening.
    (11:01 PM) Thusness: any thing extra is doing and propensities.