Conversations with Thusness 2009-2013 on I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta:

(9:12 PM) Thusness:    no mind is an experience, it is not an insight
(9:14 PM) Thusness:    ppl that have experienced no-mind knows there is such experience and aims towards achieving it again.
(9:14 PM) Thusness:    but insight is different...it is a direct experiential realization.
(9:14 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:14 PM) Thusness:    that all along it is so.

(11:19 PM) Thusness:    u may have no-mind as an experience and understood that there is such an experience as simple manifestation or just the radiant world
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    but still it remains as a stage
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    u have no idea that it is a wrong view
(11:20 PM) Thusness:    we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds'
a mistaken view shaping our entire experience
(11:22 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:23 PM) AEN:    dharma dan calls it the knot of perception rite
(11:23 PM) Thusness:    yes
(11:23 PM) AEN:    so no mind is a strage?
stage
(11:24 PM) Thusness:    no-mind is the peak of non-dual, the natural state of non-dual
(11:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:24 PM) Thusness:    where the background is completely gone
(11:25 PM) Thusness:    very often a practitioner in an advance phase of non-dual and One Mind, will naturally knows the importance of no-mind.
And that becomes the practice
they know they have to be there
(11:26 PM) Thusness:    however, to come to this natural state of non-dual where the background is deemed irrelevant, it requires insight of anatta.


(12:09 AM) Thusness:    and say yes, u realized ur mistake.  wrote too fast.
Awareness is just a label...
(12:11 AM) Thusness:    some of the texts u quoted are also misleading
(12:12 AM) Thusness:    when one spoke to others in longchen forum, some is to lead one into non-dual from "I AM" coz they can't accept anatta insight but is able to penetrate non-dual.
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    when anatta insight arises, one realizes there is no background
(12:14 AM) Thusness:    when insight of emptiness arise, then all is just sharing the same taste, luminous yet empty
(12:14 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:15 AM) Thusness:    that is, i do not see Awareness, just a luminous manifestation
there is no sense of Self/self
or Awareness
(12:16 AM) Thusness:    there is always only sound, forms, smell...sweetness....hardness...thoughts...
effortlessly manifesting
(12:16 AM) Thusness:    non-dually experienced
(12:18 AM) Thusness:    in terms of actual experience, what that is written in the forum is not enough
(12:18 AM) Thusness:    the intensity of luminosity isn't there.
(12:19 AM) Thusness:    first u go through the "I AM" for a period first
later u will understand what i mean


(12:12 AM) Thusness:    not by way of non-identification.
(12:13 AM) Thusness:    by realization -- the arising insight there the mirror does not exist
(12:15 AM) Thusness:    if at the back of one's mind, there is this belief of a self, then will experience of no-mind be intermittent or permanent?
(12:16 AM) AEN:    intermittent
(12:17 AM) Thusness:    so how is one without the realization have a permanent experience of no-mind?  There is no clarity, no doubtlessness of no-self, is it possible that there is a permanent and effortless experience of all sensate experiences without self?


Thusness: ...To be more exact, the so called 'background' consciousness is that pristine happening. There is no a 'background' and a 'pristine happening'. During the initial phase of non-dual, there is still habitual attempt to 'fix' this imaginary split that does not exist. It matures when we realized that anatta is a seal, not a stage; in hearing, always only sounds; in seeing always only colors, shapes and forms; in thinking, always only thoughts. Always and already so. -:)




15/4/13 12:23:19 AM: John Tan: (One Mind) Means consciousness is of true existing like a container
15/4/13 12:23:54 AM: John Tan: Consciousness is not in the body but the body is in consciousness
15/4/13 12:24:25 AM: John Tan: Sound arises in consciousness
15/4/13 12:24:56 AM: John Tan: Therefore consciousness doesn't change
15/4/13 12:25:58 AM: John Tan: The other (No Mind) is as if consciousness is the substance of matter
15/4/13 12:27:36 AM: John Tan: When we say sound-consciousness, there is no such thing as sound and sound-consciousness
15/4/13 12:27:59 AM: John Tan: That sound is the sound-consciousness
15/4/13 12:28:24 AM: John Tan: There is no such thing as sound
15/4/13 12:28:36 AM: John Tan: Or sound-conscious
15/4/13 12:29:04 AM: John Tan: When we say I hear sound



15/4/13 12:34:19 AM: John Tan: How do u differentiate one mind from no mind to anatta?
15/4/13 12:34:43 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In no mind there is no subsuming involved there is only manifestation
15/4/13 12:34:47 AM: Soh Wei Yu: But as an experience
15/4/13 12:35:07 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In anatta there is insight into no agent in seeing just seen pure manifestation
15/4/13 12:35:20 AM: Soh Wei Yu: One mind is subsuming but yet nondual is experienced
15/4/13 12:37:11 AM: John Tan: One mind is u r always looking at an ultimate mind behind, u r not looking at manifestation
15/4/13 12:37:26 AM: Soh Wei Yu: But it's not I Am right
15/4/13 12:37:36 AM: John Tan: Yes it is not
15/4/13 12:38:18 AM: Soh Wei Yu: It's like integrating foreground as being an aspect of background
15/4/13 12:38:28 AM: John Tan: Everything is consumed into the source (for One Mind)
15/4/13 12:39:24 AM: John Tan: I m is just the pure background behind but external objects r not subsumed into it...like separate
15/4/13 12:39:48 AM: John Tan: I m I ....dualistic

15/4/13 12:41:53 AM: John Tan: In this case (One Mind) all is being consumed/subsumed into the source
15/4/13 12:42:45 AM: John Tan: Sound is consciousness is not one mind but no mind

15/4/13 12:44:02 AM: John Tan: When the hearer is gone and there is only sound, that sound is precisely consciousness
15/4/13 12:45:15 AM: John Tan: That is the experience of no-mind

15/4/13 12:50:31 AM: John Tan: No mind is like the mirror becomes transparent and there is just that
15/4/13 12:51:22 AM: John Tan: But the view is the reflection and the mirror is not the same
15/4/13 12:52:09 AM: John Tan: Like sky is not the flowing cloud


John TanFriday, November 22, 2013 at 8:25am UTC+08

But this is also good so that the point that a practitioner may hv clear experience of no mind but a view of one mind..
John TanFriday, November 22, 2013 at 8:26am UTC+08

Thus view, experience and realization


15/4/13 12:53:28 AM: John Tan: Anatta is a realization that there isn't a consciousness besides sound, scenery...etc
15/4/13 12:56:15 AM: John Tan: U c through reification of that agent and get in touch with the base manifestation  where the label rely upon
15/4/13 12:57:02 AM: John Tan: So sound is the actual consciousness is referring to
15/4/13 12:57:36 AM: John Tan: There is no consciousness other than that

15/4/13 1:01:13 AM: John Tan: When they see through reification, then phenomena has a different meaning
15/4/13 1:02:04 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as awareness is not one mind
15/4/13 1:02:52 AM: John Tan: Seeing everything as the same unchanging mind is the problem
15/4/13 1:04:09 AM: John Tan: When u c through reification, u realized "awareness" is just a label point to these manifestations
15/4/13 1:04:32 AM: John Tan: So there is nothing wrong saying that
15/4/13 1:05:24 AM: John Tan: Only when we treat awareness to b of true existence then we r deluded because there isn't any
15/4/13 1:11:14 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I see..
15/4/13 1:11:36 AM: John Tan: In hearing, there is only sound
15/4/13 1:11:57 AM: John Tan: Hearing implies the presence of sound

14/5/13 9:39:15 PM: John Tan: One mind is different
14/5/13 9:40:04 PM: John Tan: One mind as I told u is the witness is gone but subsume into an overarching Awareness
14/5/13 9:40:31 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Is there a distinct phase of one mind in your seven stages?
14/5/13 9:40:48 PM: John Tan: Phase 4
14/5/13 9:41:23 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But u said phase 4 u already realised anatta and experience no mind?
14/5/13 9:41:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: So does that mean the insight already arise by tendency to sink back to one mind is still there
14/5/13 9:42:03 PM: Soh Wei Yu: But
14/5/13 9:42:17 PM: John Tan: All such gray area is put onto phase 4 insight when view isn't completely clear
14/5/13 9:42:44 PM: John Tan: There is no way to describe the grey scale
14/5/13 9:43:24 PM: John Tan: Even in anatta there r so many different degree of refinements
14/5/13 9:43:34 PM: Soh Wei Yu: I see
14/5/13 9:43:59 PM: John Tan: But it is not practical to talk abt all
14/5/13 9:44:44 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. U mean not describable
14/5/13 9:45:32 PM: John Tan: No...not that it is not describable but not practical to describe
14/5/13 9:46:48 PM: John Tan: Like AF is part of the deviation looking into purely physical flesh and blood of pure experience ... Some went into details some does not
14/5/13 9:47:51 PM: Soh Wei Yu: What do u mean by went into details
14/5/13 9:48:54 PM: John Tan: It is like I M, there r all those experiences u undergone but I do not say they r diff phases


14/4/13 7:35:01 PM: John Tan: When u say "weather", does weather exist?
14/4/13 7:35:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No
14/4/13 7:35:42 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's a convention imputed on a seamless activity
14/4/13 7:35:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Existence and non existence don't apply
14/4/13 7:36:02 PM: John Tan: What is the basis where this label rely on
14/4/13 7:36:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Rain clouds wind etc
14/4/13 7:36:25 PM: John Tan: Don't talk prasanga
14/4/13 7:36:36 PM: John Tan: Directly see
14/4/13 7:38:11 PM: John Tan: Rain too is a label
14/4/13 7:39:10 PM: John Tan: But in direct experience, there is no issue but when probed, u realized how one is confused abt the reification from language
14/4/13 7:39:52 PM: John Tan: And from there life/death/creation/cessation arise
14/4/13 7:40:06 PM: John Tan: And whole lots of attachment
14/4/13 7:40:25 PM: John Tan: But it does not mean there is no basis...get it?
14/4/13 7:40:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: The basis is just the experience right
14/4/13 7:41:15 PM: John Tan: Yes which is plain and simple
14/4/13 7:41:50 PM: John Tan: When we say the weather is windy
14/4/13 7:42:04 PM: John Tan: Feel the wind, the blowing...
14/4/13 7:43:04 PM: John Tan: But when we look at language and mistaken verb for nouns there r big issues
14/4/13 7:43:22 PM: John Tan: So before we talk abt this and that
14/4/13 7:43:40 PM: John Tan: Understand what consciousness is and awareness is
14/4/13 7:43:45 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:44:40 PM: John Tan: When we say weather, feel the sunshine, the wind, the rain
14/4/13 7:44:58 PM: John Tan: U do not search for weather
14/4/13 7:45:04 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:45:57 PM: John Tan: Similarly, when we say awareness, look into scenery, sound, tactile sensations, scents and thoughts



......................

Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Calls my attention the fact that you call the realization of I Am the same as One Mind.

I was a kid, didn't read or write yet, when suddenly I realized that "I Am the only one looking out from eyes, all others are seen from outside". But this insight was not accompanied by any notions of One MInd. I still felt as an entity looking out from the body. Nonetheless, this I Am (looking) had something genuine.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo ... for it was totally absent of concepts, thoughts.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu I AM and One Mind is different. This link should clarify our terminologies: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../differentiatin...

Rupert Spira in recent years had an even more mature insight (he said he realized it spontaneously while answering someone in a talk) into seeing how usually we think objects are seen and awareness is unseen but it's the complete opposite -- objects are never seen, only Awareness is ever seen, heard, touched, etc. This is mature All-Is-Mind insight venturing into No Mind. However I don't think anatta insight has arisen.
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awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
Differentiating I AM, One Mind, No Mind and Anatta
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo John Tan: "No mind is like the mirror becomes transparent and there is just that But the view is the reflection and the mirror is not the same. Like sky is not the flowing cloud"

The reflection and the mirror is not the same?
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Means in no-mind, there is the direct experience that that mirror (consciousness) is the substance of reflection (sights/sounds/thoughts/etc), the experience is one of complete non-duality as manifestation, yet the 'view' is still not anatta, still subtly dualistic -- reflection is still seen as not the same as the unchanging mirror. So when analysing and expressing that experience he will use that dualistic framework to express it. Therefore the peak experience is not congruent with the view (the 'conceptual' framework) one holds, there is a desync between view and experience.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Ah... is he saying that the view is a smaller realization than No MInd? ic
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu What I mean is that in between one mind and no mind the experience and realization gets refined but not yet the realization of anatta, that in seeing just the seen, 'seeing' (consciousness) is just the seen -- the colors, the manifestation, without a seer, no agent. Same goes for other senses.. 'awareness' is a label, empty of its own intrinsic existence that could exist on its own side.

When anatta is realized, then the experience of no-mind (as just manifestation) becomes in line or in sync with the anatta view. Then one can further expand that emptiness insight to mind/body, and nature of phenomena.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu View is the paradigm or framework in how consciousness is viewed in relation to phenomena, and the nature of consciousness and phenomena. One can have a completely nondual experience and yet the 'view' one holds is dualistic, therefore view and experience becomes incongruent/desynchronized, and the peak experience will not be stable and effortless.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Also as Thusness pointed out, the view aspect does not just pertain to subject/object duality but more importantly 'inherent existence'. One can overcome subject/object division but cling to 'inherent existence' of various kinds, so still subtly dualistic. Subject/object can be called a subset of the view of 'inherent existence' (pertaining to self, and to phenomena).
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo I c. I just misread thusness statement. I didn't read it as "view" being a stage. I thought he was describing One Mind. That is why I found it strange.
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo view is not a stage, it's more like a structure, paradigm or even technique. It's the ideological or philosophical framework that supports the practice.
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Yes, view is not the stage but the paradigm.

The direct realization of the right view of anatta, dependent origination and emptiness is Thusness Stage 5 and 6, you can say the 'realization' is a new phase or stage. Ultimately the emptiness view is a viewless view, it is not concept to be clung on to just like anatta is not a concept to be held but the negation, penetration or seeing through of a wrongly held framework that allows us to have the direct taste of empty radiance free from any mental proliferations. However one should contemplate dependent origination and emptiness and refine the insight into one's empty radiance. It is an important raft.

As Thusness wrote elsewhere,

"In my previous message, I mentioned abt anatta and spontaneous perfection as returning to one's natural and authentic condition because I hope u can see it from another angle.

To some, in the seen, just the seen sounded like a perfect state of concentration through long period of training and practice. To me however, the taste of anatta is the birthright, primordial and natural condition of one's clarity.

Seeing is just seen, no seer;
Hearing is just sound, no hearer. It is the gateway to realize the mundane is precisely where one's natural radiance is fully expressed. Nothing hidden, nothing beyond and fully manifested.

What does freedom from reification entail? It is to get rid of all "beyonds", all "backgrounds", all constructs so that we can recognize "face to face" of what seen, heard, touch ...etc as one's empty clarity, not to bring us to an unreachable la la Land.

So wherever and whenever I see dependent arising and emptiness, I see one's empty clarity.
Some can through seeing emptiness realized directly one's empty clarity, just like case of the insight of anatta but some can't.

If this isn't obvious, then separate pointing is necessary.

Lastly the true practice is in ceaselessly meeting conditions and situations, without that, there is no genuine actualization."
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Soh Wei Yu
Soh Wei Yu Each stage has its own view (Paradigm/structure). Dualistic and inherent - I Am. Nondual but inherent - one mind~no mind. Nondual and non inherent - Anatta, dependent origination and emptiness (stage 5-6)
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Its the present map. The map changes, though. At least it may. It is where the eagle points his beak - as D. Juan would say.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Thusness: we do not 'see' that it is the wrong view that 'blinds' a mistaken view shaping our entire experience.

This is something so relevant. We are limited by our view!
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Wanna buy? I have a few shirts left.

WE ARE LIMITED BY OUR VIEWS
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo that's why right view is the 1st factor in the noble 8fold path; and why it is said that the 5 paramitas are blind in the absence of the 6th (wisdom). We can't experience freedom with a constricted (philosophical and existential) view.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo Right. I just got the full meaning of the line:

"view, experience and realization"

This "route" is repeated in each stage.
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Geovani Geo
Geovani Geo but it is dynamic. The view evolves so, experience and realization also evolve according to the present view. Something like that...
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André A. Pais
André A. Pais Geovani Geo yes, like Soh said above:

> Each stage has its own view (Paradigm/structure). Dualistic and inherent - I Am. Nondual but inherent - one mind~no mind. Nondual and non inherent - Anatta, dependent origination and emptiness (stage 5-6)
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5 Responses
  1. Sam Says:

    I think I am clear on difference between no mind and one mind. But I am still not clear about how no mind is different from Anatta. Does not Anatta already imply no mind and vice versa?


  2. Soh Says:

    In no-mind, the sense of a background Self, awareness, seer, hearer, is gone and instead the awareness is just the sound, the sight, the everything.

    But it can just be a peak experience. Means, the sense of Self/background can be dissolved momentarily and returns later on. Having an experience where sense of self and background dissolves temporarily is not the same as having an insight that there never actually was an Agent/Background.

    Anatta is a dharma seal, a 'truth' of what is always already the case. No-mind becomes effortless after anatta realization.

    For Anatta realization, it is suddenly realized that in seeing there's always only the seen with no seer, in hearing there's always only the heard with no hearer, and same for all other senses. Until it is suddenly realized that the whole structure of Seer-Seeing-Seen doesn't apply and there is no seeing besides colors -- no seer, no hearing besides sound -- no hearer, no awareness besides manifestation. This is not just realising the lack of borders or duality but realizing the Absence of an inherently existing Self/Agent/Awareness behind manifestation. It's seeing that the 'Background' never existed. This is the realization of anatta.


  3. Anonymous Says:

    When not enough merit/good karma , and fruits of realization wont get ripe in dis present life, should one focus on volunteering, charity and selfless service?


  4. Soh Says:

    That is good, but perhaps it will be more helpful to focus on one's self inquiry and meditation. You can do both.

    Also, there are differing degrees of merits from different actions.

    Read this teaching by Buddha if you are interested in merits - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.020.than.html

    AN 9.20: Velāma Sutta: About Velāma

    "This sutta lists in order of least to greatest fruitfulness:

    An unimaginably large alms offering < feeding a stream enterer < feeding a once-returner < feeding a nonreturner < feeding an arahant < feeding a paccekabuddha < feeding a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha < feed the Saṅgha headed by a Buddha < build a monastery for the Saṅgha < undertaking the 5 precepts and go for Refuge in the Triple Gem < develop a mind of loving-kindness even for the time it takes to pull a cow's udder < develop the perception of impermanence just for the time it takes to snap one's fingers

    For the last two, loving-kindness and impermanence, developing them is more fruitful than all those preceding it combined. It goes to show how fruitful it is for us householders to develop the perception of impermanence, even if for just the time it takes to snap one's fingers!"


  5. Soh Says:

    When you practice "volunteering, charity and selfless service", which is very good, you should practice opening your heart and metta rather than be attached to actions and results.