NOTE: The stages are nothing authentic, merely for sharing purposes. The article On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection is a good reference for these 7 phases of experience. The original six stages of experience has been updated to seven stages of experience, with the addition of 'Stage 7: Presence is Spontaneously Perfected' for readers to understand that seeing the nature of reality as the ground of all experiences which is Always So, is important for effortlessness to take place.
Based on: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=210722&page=3
(Last Updated: 16th March 2009)
Stage 1: The Experience of “I AM”
It was about 20 years back and it all started with the question of “Before birth, who am I”. I do not know why but this question seems to capture my entire being. I can spend days and nights just sitting focusing, pondering over this question; till one day, everything seemed to come to a complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought arise. There is merely nothing and completely void, only this pure sense of existence. This mere sense of I, this Presence, what is it? It is not the body, not thought as there is no thought, nothing at all, just Existence itself. There is no need for anyone to authenticate this understanding.
At that moment of realization, I experience tremendous flow of energy being released. It is as if life is expressing itself through my body and I am merely nothing but this expression. However at that point in time, I am still unable to fully understand what this experience is and how I have misunderstood its nature.
Stage 2: The Experience of “I AM Everything”
It seems that my experience is supported by many Advaita and Hindu teachings. But the biggest mistake I made is when I spoke to a Buddhist friend, he told me about the doctrine of no-self, about no ‘I’. I rejected such doctrine outright as it is in direct contradiction with what I experienced. I was deeply confused for sometime and could not appreciate why Buddha has taught this doctrine and worst still make it a Dharma Seal. Until one day, I experienced the fusing of everything into ‘Me’ but somehow there is no ‘me’. It is like an “I-less I’. I somehow accepted the 'no I' idea but then I still insist that Buddha shouldn't have put it that way...
The experience is wonderful, it is as if I am totally emancipated, a complete release without boundary. I told myself I am totally convinced that I am no more confused so I wrote a poem (something like the below),
I am the rain
I am the sky
I am the ‘blueness’
The color of the sky
Nothing is more real than the I
Therefore Buddha, I am I.
There is a phrase for this experience -- Whenever and wherever there IS, the IS is Me. This phrase is like a mantra to me. I often use this to lead me back into the experience of Presence.
The rest of the journey is the unfolding and further refining of this experience of Total Presence but somehow there is always this blockage, this ‘something’ preventing me from recapturing the experience. It is the inability to fully ‘die’ into total Presence..
Stage 3: Entering Into a State of Nothingness
Somehow something is blocking the natural flow of my innermost essence and preventing me from re-living the experience. Presence is still there but there is no sense of ‘totality’. It was both logically and intuitively clear that ‘I’ is the problem. It is the ‘I’ that is blocking; it is the ‘I’ that is the limit; it is the ‘I’ that is the boundary but why can’t I do away with it? At that point in time it didn’t occur to me that I should look into the nature of awareness and what awareness is all about, instead, I was too occupied with the art of entering into a state of oblivious to rid the ‘I’...this continues for the next 13+ years (in between of course there are many other minor events and the experience of total presence did occur many times but with few months of gap)…
However I came to one important understanding –
The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything simply Self So.
Stage 4: Presence as Mirror Bright Clarity
I got in touch with Buddhism in 1997. Not because I wanted to find out more about the experience of ‘Presence’ but rather the teaching of impermanence syncs deeply with what I experience in life. I am faced with the possibility of losing all my wealth and more by financial crisis. At that point in time I have no idea that Buddhism is so profoundly rich on the aspect of ‘Presence’. The mystery of life cannot be understood, I seek for a refuge in Buddhism to alleviate my sorrows caused by the financial crisis but it turned out to be the missing key towards experiencing total presence.
I wasn’t that resistant then about the doctrine of ‘no-self’ but the idea that all phenomenon existence is empty of an inherent ‘self’ or ‘Self’ did not quite get into me. Are they talking about the ‘Self’ as a personality or ‘Self’ as ‘Eternal Witness’? Must we do away even with the ‘Witness’ itself or the Witness is another illusion itself?
There is thinking, no thinker
There is sound, no hearer
Suffering exists, no sufferer
Deeds there are, no doer
I was meditating the above stanza deeply…about its meaning until one day, suddenly I heard ‘tongss…’, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else! And ‘tongs…’ resounding…. It was so clear, so vivid!
That experience is so familiar, so real and so clear. It is the same experience of “I AM”….it is without thought, without concepts, without intermediary, without anyone there, without any in-between…What is it? IT is Presence! But this time it is not ‘I AM’, it is not asking ‘who am I’, it is not the pure sense of “I AM”, it is ‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound…
Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing else….
The heart beats…..
the Scenery…
There is no gap in between, no longer a few months gap for it to arise…
There never was a stage to enter, no I to cease and never has it existed
There is no entry and exit point…
There is no Sound out there or in here…
There is no ‘I’ apart from the arising and ceasing…
The manifold of Presence….
Moment to moment Presences unfolds…
There is no mirror reflecting
All along manifestation alone is.
The one hand claps
Everything IS!
Effectively Phase 4 is merely the non-division between subject/object experience. The initial insight glimpsed from the anatta stanza is without self but in the later phase of my progress, it appears more like subject/object is an inseparable union, than absolutely no-subject. This is precisely the 2nd case of the Three levels of understanding Non-Dual. I was still awed by the pristineness and vividness of phenomena in phase 4.
Phase 5 is quite thorough in being no one and I would call this anatta in all 3 aspects -- no subject/object division, no doer-ship and absence of agent.
The trigger point here is the direct and thorough seeing that 'the mirror is nothing more than an arising thought'. With this, the solidity and all the grandeur of 'Brahman' goes down the drain. Yet it feels perfectly right and liberating without the agent and being simply as an arising thought, or as a vivid moment of bell resounding. All the vividness and presence remains with an additional sense of freedom. Here a mirror/reflection union is clearly understood as flawed, there is only vivid reflection. There cannot be a 'union' if there isn't a subject to begin with. Only in subtle recalling, that is, a thought recalling a previous moment of thought, that the watcher seems to exist. From here, I moved towards the 3rd degree of non-dual.
The Stanza One complements and refines Stanza Two to make the experience of no-self thorough and effortless into just only chirping birds, drum beats, foot steps, sky, mountain, walking, chewing and tasting; no witness whatsoever hiding anywhere! 'Everything' is a process, event, manifestation and phenomenon, nothing ontological or having an essence.
This phase is a very thorough non-dual experience; There is effortlessness in non-dual and one realizes that in seeing always just scenery and in hearing, always just sounds. We find true delights in naturalness and ordinariness as commonly expressed in Zen as 'chop wood, carry water; spring comes, grass grows'. With regards to ordinariness (see "On Maha in Ordinariness"), it must also be correctly understood. A recent conversation with Simpo summarizes what I am trying to convey with regards to ordinariness. Simpo (Longchen) is a very insightful and sincere practitioner, there are some very good quality articles written by him regarding non-duality in his website Dreamdatum.
For further comments: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/210722?page=6
Phase 4 and 5 are the gray-scale of seeing through the subject that it does not exist in actuality (anatta), there are only the aggregates. However even the aggregates are empty (Heart Sutra). It may sound obvious but more often than not, even a practitioner that has matured the anatta experience (as in phase 5) will miss the essence of it.
As I have said earlier, phase 5 do appear to be final and it is pointless to emphasize anything. Whether one proceed further to explore this empty nature of Presence and move into the Maha world of suchness will depend on our conditions.
At this juncture, it is necessary to have clarity on what Emptiness is not to prevent misunderstandings:
Emptiness is not a path of practice
Emptiness is not a form of fruition
Emptiness is the ground of all experiences. There is nothing to attain or practice. What we have to realize is this ground, this ‘ungraspability’, ‘unlocatability ’ and ‘interconnectedness’ nature of all vivid arising. Emptiness will reveal that not only is there no ‘who’ in pristine awareness, there is no ‘where’ and ‘when’. Be it ‘I’, ‘Here’ or ’Now’, all are simply impressions that dependently originate in accordance to the principle of conditionality.
After cycles and cycles of refining our practice and insights, we will come to this realization:
Based on: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=210722&page=3
(Last Updated: 16th March 2009)
Stage 1: The Experience of “I AM”
It was about 20 years back and it all started with the question of “Before birth, who am I”. I do not know why but this question seems to capture my entire being. I can spend days and nights just sitting focusing, pondering over this question; till one day, everything seemed to come to a complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought arise. There is merely nothing and completely void, only this pure sense of existence. This mere sense of I, this Presence, what is it? It is not the body, not thought as there is no thought, nothing at all, just Existence itself. There is no need for anyone to authenticate this understanding.
At that moment of realization, I experience tremendous flow of energy being released. It is as if life is expressing itself through my body and I am merely nothing but this expression. However at that point in time, I am still unable to fully understand what this experience is and how I have misunderstood its nature.
Stage 2: The Experience of “I AM Everything”
It seems that my experience is supported by many Advaita and Hindu teachings. But the biggest mistake I made is when I spoke to a Buddhist friend, he told me about the doctrine of no-self, about no ‘I’. I rejected such doctrine outright as it is in direct contradiction with what I experienced. I was deeply confused for sometime and could not appreciate why Buddha has taught this doctrine and worst still make it a Dharma Seal. Until one day, I experienced the fusing of everything into ‘Me’ but somehow there is no ‘me’. It is like an “I-less I’. I somehow accepted the 'no I' idea but then I still insist that Buddha shouldn't have put it that way...
The experience is wonderful, it is as if I am totally emancipated, a complete release without boundary. I told myself I am totally convinced that I am no more confused so I wrote a poem (something like the below),
I am the rain
I am the sky
I am the ‘blueness’
The color of the sky
Nothing is more real than the I
Therefore Buddha, I am I.
There is a phrase for this experience -- Whenever and wherever there IS, the IS is Me. This phrase is like a mantra to me. I often use this to lead me back into the experience of Presence.
The rest of the journey is the unfolding and further refining of this experience of Total Presence but somehow there is always this blockage, this ‘something’ preventing me from recapturing the experience. It is the inability to fully ‘die’ into total Presence..
Stage 3: Entering Into a State of Nothingness
Somehow something is blocking the natural flow of my innermost essence and preventing me from re-living the experience. Presence is still there but there is no sense of ‘totality’. It was both logically and intuitively clear that ‘I’ is the problem. It is the ‘I’ that is blocking; it is the ‘I’ that is the limit; it is the ‘I’ that is the boundary but why can’t I do away with it? At that point in time it didn’t occur to me that I should look into the nature of awareness and what awareness is all about, instead, I was too occupied with the art of entering into a state of oblivious to rid the ‘I’...this continues for the next 13+ years (in between of course there are many other minor events and the experience of total presence did occur many times but with few months of gap)…
However I came to one important understanding –
The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything simply Self So.
Stage 4: Presence as Mirror Bright Clarity
I got in touch with Buddhism in 1997. Not because I wanted to find out more about the experience of ‘Presence’ but rather the teaching of impermanence syncs deeply with what I experience in life. I am faced with the possibility of losing all my wealth and more by financial crisis. At that point in time I have no idea that Buddhism is so profoundly rich on the aspect of ‘Presence’. The mystery of life cannot be understood, I seek for a refuge in Buddhism to alleviate my sorrows caused by the financial crisis but it turned out to be the missing key towards experiencing total presence.
I wasn’t that resistant then about the doctrine of ‘no-self’ but the idea that all phenomenon existence is empty of an inherent ‘self’ or ‘Self’ did not quite get into me. Are they talking about the ‘Self’ as a personality or ‘Self’ as ‘Eternal Witness’? Must we do away even with the ‘Witness’ itself or the Witness is another illusion itself?
There is thinking, no thinker
There is sound, no hearer
Suffering exists, no sufferer
Deeds there are, no doer
I was meditating the above stanza deeply…about its meaning until one day, suddenly I heard ‘tongss…’, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else! And ‘tongs…’ resounding…. It was so clear, so vivid!
That experience is so familiar, so real and so clear. It is the same experience of “I AM”….it is without thought, without concepts, without intermediary, without anyone there, without any in-between…What is it? IT is Presence! But this time it is not ‘I AM’, it is not asking ‘who am I’, it is not the pure sense of “I AM”, it is ‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound…
Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing else….
The heart beats…..
the Scenery…
There is no gap in between, no longer a few months gap for it to arise…
There never was a stage to enter, no I to cease and never has it existed
There is no entry and exit point…
There is no Sound out there or in here…
There is no ‘I’ apart from the arising and ceasing…
The manifold of Presence….
Moment to moment Presences unfolds…
Comments:Stage 5: No Mirror Reflecting
This is the beginning of seeing through no-self. Insight into no-self has arisen but non-dual experience is still very much 'Brahman' than 'Sunyata'; in fact it is more Brahman than ever. Now "I AMness" is experienced in All.
Nevertheless it is a very important key phase where practitioner experiences a quantum leap in perception untying the dualistic knot. This is also the key insight leading to the realization that "All is Mind", all is just this One Reality.
The tendency to extrapolate an Ultimate Reality or Universal Consciousness where we are part of this Reality remains surprisingly strong. Effectively the dualistic knot is gone but the bond of seeing things inherently isn't. 'Dualistic' and 'inherent' knots that prevent the fully experiencing of our Maha, empty and non-dual nature of pristine awareness are two very different 'perceptual spells' that blind.
The subsection "On Second Stanza" of the post "On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness and Spontaneous Perfection" further elaborates this insight.
There is no mirror reflecting
All along manifestation alone is.
The one hand claps
Everything IS!
Effectively Phase 4 is merely the non-division between subject/object experience. The initial insight glimpsed from the anatta stanza is without self but in the later phase of my progress, it appears more like subject/object is an inseparable union, than absolutely no-subject. This is precisely the 2nd case of the Three levels of understanding Non-Dual. I was still awed by the pristineness and vividness of phenomena in phase 4.
Phase 5 is quite thorough in being no one and I would call this anatta in all 3 aspects -- no subject/object division, no doer-ship and absence of agent.
The trigger point here is the direct and thorough seeing that 'the mirror is nothing more than an arising thought'. With this, the solidity and all the grandeur of 'Brahman' goes down the drain. Yet it feels perfectly right and liberating without the agent and being simply as an arising thought, or as a vivid moment of bell resounding. All the vividness and presence remains with an additional sense of freedom. Here a mirror/reflection union is clearly understood as flawed, there is only vivid reflection. There cannot be a 'union' if there isn't a subject to begin with. Only in subtle recalling, that is, a thought recalling a previous moment of thought, that the watcher seems to exist. From here, I moved towards the 3rd degree of non-dual.
The Stanza One complements and refines Stanza Two to make the experience of no-self thorough and effortless into just only chirping birds, drum beats, foot steps, sky, mountain, walking, chewing and tasting; no witness whatsoever hiding anywhere! 'Everything' is a process, event, manifestation and phenomenon, nothing ontological or having an essence.
This phase is a very thorough non-dual experience; There is effortlessness in non-dual and one realizes that in seeing always just scenery and in hearing, always just sounds. We find true delights in naturalness and ordinariness as commonly expressed in Zen as 'chop wood, carry water; spring comes, grass grows'. With regards to ordinariness (see "On Maha in Ordinariness"), it must also be correctly understood. A recent conversation with Simpo summarizes what I am trying to convey with regards to ordinariness. Simpo (Longchen) is a very insightful and sincere practitioner, there are some very good quality articles written by him regarding non-duality in his website Dreamdatum.
Yes Simpo,Practitioners up to this level often get over excited and misunderstand that this phase is final; in fact it does appear to be a sort of pseudo finality. Nothing much can be said. Practitioner will also be naturally led into spontaneous perfection without going further emptying the aggregates. :-)
Non-dual is ordinary as there is 'no-beyond' stage to arrive at. It appears to be extraordinary and grandeur only as an after thought due to comparison.
That said, the maha experience appearing as "universe chewing" and the spontaneity of pristine happening must still remain maha, free, boundless and clear. For that is what it is and cannot be otherwise. The "extraordinariness and grandeur" that result from comparison must also be correctly discerned from the 'what is' of non-dual.
Whenever contraction steps in, it is already a manifestation of 'experiencer-experience split'. Conventionally speaking, that being the cause, that being the effect. Whatever the condition is, be it the result of unfavorable situations or subtle recalling to arrived at certain good sensation or attempting to fix an imaginary split, we have to treat it that the 'non-dual' insight has not pervaded into our entire being like the way 'karmic tendency to divide' does. We have not fearlessly, openly and unreservedly welcome whatever is. :-)
Just my view, a causal sharing.
For further comments: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/210722?page=6
Comments:Stage 6: The Nature of Presence is Empty
The drop is thorough, the center is gone. The center is nothing more than a subtle karmic tendency to divide. A more poetic expression would be sound hears, scenery sees, the dust is the mirror. Transient phenomenon itself has always been the mirror, only strong dualistic view prevents the seeing.
Very often cycles after cycles of refining our insights are needed to make non-dual less 'concentrative' and more 'effortless'. This relates to experiencing the non-solidity and spontaneity of experience. The subsection "On First Stanza" of the post "On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness and Spontaneous Perfection" further elaborates this phase of insight.
At this phase, we must be clear that emptying the subject will only result in non-duality and there is a need to further empty the aggregates, 18 dhatus. This means one must further penetrate the emptiness nature of the 5 aggregates, 18 dhatus with dependent origination and emptiness. Practitioner now move from 'Brahman' to 'Sunyata'. This individual stream of consciousness is itself non-dual and entire; the need to reify a Universal Brahman is understood as the karmic tendency to 'solidify' experiences. This leads to the understanding of the empty nature of non-dual presence.
Phase 4 and 5 are the gray-scale of seeing through the subject that it does not exist in actuality (anatta), there are only the aggregates. However even the aggregates are empty (Heart Sutra). It may sound obvious but more often than not, even a practitioner that has matured the anatta experience (as in phase 5) will miss the essence of it.
As I have said earlier, phase 5 do appear to be final and it is pointless to emphasize anything. Whether one proceed further to explore this empty nature of Presence and move into the Maha world of suchness will depend on our conditions.
At this juncture, it is necessary to have clarity on what Emptiness is not to prevent misunderstandings:
• Emptiness is not a substanceAnd I would like to add,
• Emptiness is not a substratum or background
• Emptiness is not light
• Emptiness is not consciousness or awareness
• Emptiness is not the Absolute
• Emptiness does not exist on its own
• Objects do not consist of emptiness
• Objects do not arise from emptiness
• Emptiness of the "I" does not negate the "I"
• Emptiness is not the feeling that results when no objects are appearing to the mind
• Meditating on emptiness does not consist of quieting the mind
Source: Non-Dual Emptiness Teaching
Emptiness is not a path of practice
Emptiness is not a form of fruition
Emptiness is the ground of all experiences. There is nothing to attain or practice. What we have to realize is this ground, this ‘ungraspability’, ‘unlocatability ’ and ‘interconnectedness’ nature of all vivid arising. Emptiness will reveal that not only is there no ‘who’ in pristine awareness, there is no ‘where’ and ‘when’. Be it ‘I’, ‘Here’ or ’Now’, all are simply impressions that dependently originate in accordance to the principle of conditionality.
When there is this, that is.The profundity of this four-liner principle of conditionality is not in words. For a more theoretical exposition, see Non-Dual Emptiness Teachings by Dr. Greg Goode; for a more experiential narration, see the subsection "On Emptiness" and "On Maha" of the post "On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness and Spontaneous Perfection".
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
Comments:Stage 7: Presence is Spontaneously Perfected
Here practice is clearly understood as neither going after the mirror nor escaping from the maya reflection; it is to thoroughly 'see' the 'nature' of reflection. To see that there is really no mirror other than the ongoing reflection due to our emptiness nature. Neither is there a mirror to cling to as the background reality nor a maya to escape from. Beyond these two extreme lies the middle path -- the prajna wisdom of seeing that the maya is our Buddha nature.
I am unable to express well in words this empty nature of presence. The article Madhyamika Buddhism Vis-a-vis Hindu Vedanta narrates this experience pretty well.
The last 3 subsections ("On Emptiness", "On Maha in Ordinariness", "Spontaneous Perfection") of the post "On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness and Spontaneous Perfection" elaborates this phase of emptiness insight and the gradual progress of maturing the experience into the effortless mode of practice. It is important to know that in addition to the experience of the unfindability and ungraspability of emptiness, the interconnectedness of everything creating the Maha experience is equally precious.
After cycles and cycles of refining our practice and insights, we will come to this realization:
Anatta is a seal, not a stage.All are always and already so. Only dualistic and inherent views are obscuring these experiential facts and therefore what is really needed is simply to experience whatever arises openly and unreservedly (See section "On Spontaneous Perfection"). However this does not denote the end of practice; practice simply moves to become dynamic and conditions-manifestation based. The ground and the path of practice become indistinguishable.
Awareness has always been non-dual.
Appearances have always been Non-arising.
All phenomena are ‘interconnected’ and by nature Maha.
Emptiness is the ground of all experiences.
Comments:
The entire article of On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection can be seen as the different approaches toward the eventual realization of this already perfect nature of awareness.
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Comments (18)
I understand very little of what Thusness has said. The path that Thusness describes, his insights, are his and his alone.
And yet there is recognition of truth in the words, not so much from meaning but from the essence of what is said.
What to do with what has been described?
Just allow it all to sink in deeply.
Thank you Thusness and AEN.
Signed,
JonLS
The contemplation upon “Before birth, who am I”, is similar to one of the Advaitan contemplations, such as “who am I?” It also reminds me of the Theravadan practice of anatta. These practices fundamentally collapse the identity; however, when the identity is properly collapsed one should be propelled into absorption (jhana, samadhi), or otherwise the exercise is purely an intellectual one. And indeed we see evidence of that in the following “one day, everything seemed to come to a complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought arise.” This is the second jhana, because the thoughts have come to a standstill.
However, the individual also says “There is merely nothing and completely void,” while this person may have made it all of the way to the 9th samadhi, we do not find evidence of that, so this “void” is just the void of an empty mind stream.
Then, the individual says, “I experience tremendous flow of energy being released.” Every stage of samadhi is accompanied by energy. The deeper one goes the more energy one observes. Thus, this is further evidence that the individual arrived at the second jhana. The second jhana is the first liberation, according to the Buddha, and we find indeed this individual felt liberated. “The experience is wonderful, it is as if I am totally emancipated, a complete release without boundary.” But, according to the Buddha there are 7 more. Also, it is understandable that this individual was confused by Buddhist teachings around anatta. It is because few Buddhist teachers understand it. The practice as I understand it is more related to the Advaitan contemplations than a simple rejection of self.
If I may speculate on “but somehow there is always this blockage, this ‘something’ preventing me from recapturing the experience.” I would say that if the individual would learn meditation that produces jhana and engaged in it every day for a few hours a day, this individual would most probably not only find the above second jhana attainment every day, but will most probably deepen to the third jhana and beyond.
In section 4 the individual says, he or she hear “‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound… Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing else….
The heart beats…..” This sounds like the individual broke through to the third jhana; however, it does not sound like it was sustained. Again, by learning to meditate skillfully then the individual could sustain the third jhana or deeper on a regular basis.
Kindest regards,
Jeffrey S, Brooks
(sámañña Jhananda)
the Great Western Vehicle • Mahapacchimayana
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/
Hi Jhanananda,
Thanks for dropping by your comments. I have a somewhat different understanding on how they are mapped to the Buddhist Anatta experience and will thus be sharing my understanding.
Thusness six stages of enlightenment are short summaries of his gradual insights into the non-dual (aka Anatta/no-self in Buddhism), empty (dependent origination) and self-liberated nature of Buddha Nature. As spontaneous self-liberation is commonly misunderstood, Thusness has always stressed that before the arising of the intuitive insights into non-dual and emptiness nature, it is best not to discuss about it. For the purpose of this comment, I reckon that only the Anatta and the strength of propensity that blinds are relevant and therefore I will just restrict the comments only on these 2 aspects.
First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. (related article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/bernadette-roberts-interview.html) This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically (also see my other friend Longchen’s article http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html where I posted two of his articles including ‘How is nonduality like?’ in this forum)
That said, I never doubted the role “concentration & absorption” in spiritual practices. It is also true that the strength of uninterrupted concentration may not be there even for one with insights (especially when one have just begun to have nondual realisations and the insight into emptiness is not yet there), and it has to go hand in hand with their new found insight of nonduality for stability, and also move into various graduation of nonduality. As mentioned earlier, there are no stages/appearances that are purer than any others – every state is equally pure and non-dual in nature. When the mind grasps pure awareness as ‘formless’, ‘thoughtless’, ‘attributeless’, and as the background reality.... the ‘fabric’ and ‘texture’ of pristine awareness as ‘forms’ is then missed.
Nevertheless, whatever you commented is important especially for the first 3 (Thusness’s) stages of experience, and in these stages the problem would certainly be the lack of sustained meditation concentration as well as the tendency of trying to grasp intellectually... which is also why Thusness often emphasizes the importance of sitting and meditation plays quite a different role for a non-dualist as there is no more entry or exit point.
Within the Theravadin tradition, I understand the experience of (Thusness’s) Stage 4 which is the beginning of realising non-duality to be the beginning of the third path/stage of enlightenment (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/12/heart-sutra-model-of-four-paths.html
and http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/non-duality-models-of-enlightenment-by.html) and also corresponding in terms of realisations to the beginning of ‘One-Taste’ in the Bodhisattva bhumi models. From here on it is a matter of how deeply the insights of nonduality/nonself and emptiness has penetrated into our consciousness and replaced our dualistic way of knowing due to karmic propensities.
The author of the two articles (a Theravadin teacher) mentioned above also said in the Heart Sutra Model of the Four Paths regarding the third path, “That said, the concept of Nirvana now seems to generally apply to the phenomenal world as well as the attainment of Fruition, though there is still something clouding the waters. Those of third path will have a direct understanding of what is meant by non-duality, the “intrinsic luminosity” of phenomena and of “interdependence” that is far more direct and clear than the somewhat intuitive understanding of those of first and second path. This holds up quite well until they get into another progress cycle.”, and,
“It requires great deal of trust in reality as well as a fairly new realm of understanding. Paths that emphasize “surrender to the will of God” might well have an easier time with this transition. Simply emphasizing the Third Characteristic, that all things simply happen on their own, works just as well.”
As to what led to jhanic bliss, I would like to say that regardless of samatha or vipassana practices, true blissful absorptive experiences are the result of dissolution of self and subject-object split. For non-dualists, this blissful absorptive experience takes a form of clarity-absorption which is mentioned in one of the Thusness posts in my friend Longchen’s forum (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html). It is difficult to explain and I will not speculate further what that is beyond me. It should also be mentioned however at a deeper level of non-dual realisation, when true spontaneity is realised, and psychological death is complete, one will overcome the tendency of grasping on the conscious and the three states (waking, dream, deep dreamless sleep) becomes one. He will also realise that it is needless to maintain an uninterrupted state of conscious witnessing awareness when the true nature of Awareness is revealed, as Thusness and Longchen have said.
Lastly, thank you very much for sharing your valuable comments and interpretations here.
With regards,
'An Eternal Now'
Hi Jhanananda,
Thanks for dropping by your comments. I have a somewhat different understanding on how they are mapped to the Buddhist Anatta experience and will thus be sharing my understanding.
Thusness six stages of enlightenment are short summaries of his gradual insights into the non-dual (aka Anatta/no-self in Buddhism), emptiness (dependent origination) and self-liberated nature of our pristine awareness. As spontaneous self-liberation is commonly misunderstood, Thusness has always stressed that before the arising of the intuitive insights into our non-dual and emptiness nature, it is best not to discuss about it. For the purpose of this comment, I will only discuss the Anatta and the strength of propensity that blinds.
Indeed self-liberation cannot be understood before the experience of non-duality and emptiness nature of our pristine awareness. However after the stability of these 2 insights, nothing needs to be said as the ‘mere manifestations of these inseparable characteristics as arising phenomena’ is itself liberation.
First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing of personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from the arising and ceasing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. (related article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/bernadette-roberts-interview.html) This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
To illustrate further due to the importance of this seal, I would like to borrow a quote from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html)
‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’…
If a practitioner were to feel that he has gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’ or takes that ‘there is just mere sound’, then this experience is again distorted. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so.
Well said! Just a little more emphasis: This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept.
For a non dualist that has gained sufficient stability, practice takes a very different role. This is due to the thoroughness of seeing through the illusionary views of the sense of self, the entire mechanism that causes the split and the mechanism of how it ‘blinds’. Therefore after knowing the real cause and conditions, a non-dualist cannot resort back to a dualistic approach towards liberation and practice and meditation take very different roles. It becomes instant, dynamic, spontaneous and direct.
Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. For this is how the dual mind works. This purest state of presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous and emptiness nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically (also see my other friend Longchen’s article http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html where I posted two of his articles including ‘How is nonduality like?’ in this forum)
‘Purest’ because it is the limit of the thought realm; beyond that is inconceivable by the conceptual mind. The mind conjures out this ‘state’ as it cannot penetrate its own depth. It does not allow itself to cease completely.
Within the Theravadin tradition, I understand the experience of (Thusness’s) Stage 4 which is the beginning of realising non-duality to be the beginning of the third path/stage of enlightenment (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/12/heart-sutra-model-of-four-paths.html
and http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/non-duality-models-of-enlightenment-by.html) and also corresponding in terms of realisations to the beginning of ‘One-Taste’ in the Bodhisattva bhumi models. From here on it is a matter of how deeply the insights of nonduality/nonself and emptiness has penetrated into our consciousness and replaced our dualistic way of knowing due to karmic propensities.
This is known as the ‘turning point’ in Lankavatara Sutra.
The author of the two articles (a Theravadin teacher) mentioned above also said in the Heart Sutra Model of the Four Paths regarding the third path, “That said, the concept of Nirvana now seems to generally apply to the phenomenal world as well as the attainment of Fruition, though there is still something clouding the waters. Those of third path will have a direct understanding of what is meant by non-duality, the “intrinsic luminosity” of phenomena and of “interdependence” that is far more direct and clear than the somewhat intuitive understanding of those of first and second path. This holds up quite well until they get into another progress cycle.”, and,
“It requires great deal of trust in reality as well as a fairly new realm of understanding. Paths that emphasize “surrender to the will of God” might well have an easier time with this transition. Simply emphasizing the Third Characteristic, that all things simply happen on their own, works just as well.”
Great insight by Dharma Dan!
That said, I never doubted the importance of “concentration & absorption” in spiritual practices. It is also true that the strength of uninterrupted concentration may not be there even for one with insights (especially when one have just begun to have nondual realisations and the insight into emptiness is not yet there), and it has to go hand in hand with their new found insight of nonduality for stability, and also move into various graduation of nonduality. As mentioned earlier, there are no stages/appearances that are purer than any others – every state is equally pure and non-dual in naSSSSture. When the mind grasps pure awareness as ‘formless’, ‘thoughtless’, ‘attributeless’, and as the background reality.... the ‘fabric’ and ‘texture’ of pristine awareness as ‘forms’ is then missed. Nevertheless, whatever you commented is crucial especially for the first 3 (Thusness’s) stages of experience, and in these stages the problem would certainly be the lack of sustained meditation concentration as well as the tendency of trying to grasp intellectually... which is also why Thusness often emphasizes the importance of sitting.
The first 3 stages are before the arising of non-dual insight and the purpose of sustainability is to create sufficient gap between 2 moments of thoughts to allow the sensation of contrast between conceptual/non-conceptuality for the thinking mind to realize the possibility of going pre-symbolic thereby loosening its stubborn grips of a dualistic framework.
Sustained bare attention also gave rise to the realization that ‘inner’, ‘outer’, ‘space’, ‘time’ and even ‘body’ and ‘mind’ are all mere constructs. Freeing from these constructs, also give rise to the condition for non-dual insight to arise.
For the first 3 stages, practice takes the form of striving towards a certain stage of perfection whereas stages 4 onwards, practice moves from ‘efforting’ to natural luminosity and spontaneity.
As to what led to jhanic bliss, I would like to say that regardless of samatha or vipassana practices, true blissful absorptive experiences are the result of dissolution of self and subject-object split. For non-dualists, this blissful absorptive experience takes a form of clarity-absorption which is mentioned in one of the Thusness posts in my friend Longchen’s forum (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html). It is difficult to explain and I will not speculate further what that is beyond me. It should also be mentioned however at a deeper level of non-dual realisation, when true spontaneity is realised, and psychological death is complete, one will overcome the tendency of grasping on the conscious and the three states (waking, dream, deep dreamless sleep) becomes one. He will also realize that it is needless to maintain an uninterrupted state of conscious witnessing awareness when the true nature of Awareness is revealed, as Thusness and Longchen have said.
Well said! Speak no more and experience fully!
Rest.
A similar thing happened to me when I was young (7-8) years old. It occured one day when I had the thought thatmy name was kind of wierd sounding, so I kept repeating by name over and over (and kept on thinking "yeah it's wierd, doesn't even sound like me)...and then BAM!...everything was void, nothing existed, quiet emptiness. It was not a wonderful feeling for a young kid...sort of scary, nothing existed and I brought myself out of the trance. Afterward, I was able to get into this state on command by repeating my name. I can never forget the incident, but I can't do it anymore now that I'm 33 years old. The last time was about 2 years ago when I was half asleep, I went into that state spontaneously for some reason....strange...
Hi anonymous,
What you experienced sounded to me like an absorption or a jhana, but it is not the realisation of luminosity/pure consciousness/presence.
Thusness, I understood little of what you have said. LOL. A well-done website though.
HAHA...How can there be anything called EMPTINESS? How can it BE or not BE anything. It's EMPTY! Choose your words carefully and speak not of things that cannot be spoken of. Peace be with you :-).
Hi,
Emptiness is not a thing, but emptiness is also not a nothing. By saying 'emptiness is not ...' is simply to negate the false conceptions of what the Buddhist teachings on Emptiness is about.
Shunyata (Emptiness) means whatever appears are empty of independent or inherent existence, be it a sound, a form, or any other phenomena. This is because it is the 'interconnectedness' that give rise to the sound or experience (The person, the stick, the bell, hitting, air, ears, etc, i.e. the conditions).
Thus, whatever arises interdependently is vividly clear and luminous, but empty of any *independent* or *inherent* existence. This is not the same as nothing or nihilism.
Nagarjuna:
Whatever is dependently co-arisen,
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation,
Is itself the middle way. (Treatise, 24.18)
Something that is not dependently arisen,
Such a thing does not exist.
Therefore a nonempty thing
Does not exist. (Treatise, 24.19)
Hmm...then I can only comment that the use of the word or at least the translation of it is terrible. When we say something is empty, it is to convey the idea opposite to there being something. Using it to mean the interconnected nature of things is just...stupid man. Excuse me if I sound a bit cynical here. There is too much word play/labeling here that is totally meaningless. Lol...Stages of experience....Hahahaha what stages? There is only the never ending flow.
John,
all of Buddhist philosophy is method, and not meant to be taken as self-existing. conceptual understanding can only be a vehicle, not an end.
The translation is not terrible because what is important is the the 'unfindability of an essence' in all phenomena phenomena, and that is what emptiness mean.
Like a red flower that is so vivid, clear and right in front of an observer, the “redness” only appears to “belong” to the flower, it is in actuality not so. Vision of red does not arise in all animal species (dogs cannot perceive colours) nor is the “redness” an attribute of the mind. If given a “quantum eyesight” to look into the atomic structure, there is similarly no attribute “redness” anywhere found, only almost complete space/void with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, shapes, form, or “redness” -- merely luminous yet empty, mere Appearances without inherent/objective existence. What gives rise to the differences of colours and experiences in each of us? Dependent arising... hence empty of inherent existence. This is the nature of all phenomena.
As you've seen, there is no 'The Flowerness' seen by a dog, an insect or us, or beings from other realms (which really may have a completely different mode of perception). 'The Flowerness' is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions.
Lastly, reality is a never ending flow, but you can either live in that never ending flow in suffering and ignorance, grasing and self-contraction, or be liberated by insights.
I believe conceptual understanding ends the notion of an individual "I." From then on the Path towards true enlightenment is absolutely irrelevant. Some will get there through Buddhist methods. Or some will get there by playing the violin. Or some will get there in death. I think it all depends on how much tendencies the ego has built up in the past.
"Dependent arising... hence empty of inherent existence."
See it has to be empty OF something. Just putting the word emptiness has no value. You're borrowing words that were not intended for the use of describing certain experiences. It just sure as hell confuses people because they will try to put in context the word "empty." You can even say there is only "fullness." Because everything is dependently arising, everything is "full."
You can only flow with the current. Expecting it will somehow cure your suffering is itself a suffering. Only when there is no one to observe any insights can there be true cultivation of any sorts. Insights are something you become. Not something you see and theorize about.
There is only the current, no flowing with the current. When there is no one to observe any insights, the ground is already understood as the path, there is no cultivation. Therefore in Heart Sutra it is stated that there is no attainment. Insight is also not something you become, insight is awakening to what already is and there is no 'you' becoming anything, there is only what already and always is.
Thanks for sharing your valuable comments. :)
There is only the current, no flowing with the current = you can ONLY flow with the current.
When there is no one to observe any insights, the ground is already understood as the path, there is no cultivation = From then on the Path towards true enlightenment is absolutely irrelevant.
Insight is also not something you become, insight is awakening to what already is and there is no 'you' becoming anything, there is only what already and always is. = I believe conceptual understanding ends the notion of an individual "I."
I seems like there was a misunderstanding when I wrote that "Insight" is something that you become. We agree on these concepts. So what's all this nonsense about different stages. This lengthy discourse on emptiness, it is all useless jargon.
A 'You' flowing with the current is the cause of suffering. Although you see stages as useless jargon, others may find it appropriate. You hold onto an ultimate view, but what I see is a dependently originated view, simply skillful means. Lastly, awakeness is important, not concepts.
I bow to your compassionate efforts. :)